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Looking for drum recording advice
| Message Board > Music Chitchat - Heavy > Looking for drum recording advice |
| The Box Drone User Info... | Hany anyone got any tips about recording drums on a shoestring budget? Any good low-fi drum recording techniques you care to share? What are good effects to use after you have them in? What's the minimum # of mics you should use to get a half decent sound? Compression? Is there such a thing as an "all in one" drum micing kit you can buy? I'll probably be mostly using the drumkit to record loops & then seriously mess with them on my computer, so I'm not too concerned about getting crystal clear drum recordings. I've had moderately satisfying results just recording them through my minidisk mic, but I'd like to take it a step higher if it'd be worth it. Thanks for any advice... - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 9:24am Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 9:29am | ||
| Aidan Pine User Info... | Hey, It totally depends on your budget. I'd say for lower end but definately good drum recordings. The CAD PMP65 drum mic kit is the best bang for your buck. Anything lower than that you simply don't want. IMO. If your looking to spend some more just email me and I'll point you in the right direction. And by the way you CAN get by with just micing the snare, bass and two overheads but it's nice to have some tom mics :) Also EQ and compression will greatly increase the quality of the recording. All the best, Aidan. - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 4:22pm Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 4:27pm | ||
| Anonymous User Info... | Good advice.. a soundproofed non square room makes a big difference.. i also have the cad Mics and they cost me 250 from landm they work great no complaints as of yet.. Good luck! - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 7:41pm Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 7:44pm | ||
| StarShip B.O.B. User Info... | John Bonham achieved possibly the biggest drum sound ever with minimal mikes on the earlier Zeppelin recordings. Sometimes "less is more" can work to your advantage. - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 8:27pm Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 8:31pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | Just like Aidan says, quite often Snare, Kick and Overheads is plenty. If you wanna get funky, put one on the top and bottom of the snare to mix later, and play around with the kick mic placement until you get exactly the sound you like. Also not super hi-fi at all, but I've achieved very listenable results with a single stereo mic above and behind my head pointed down at the kit. It you closed your eyes it sounds just like it did while playing. Its an awesome chance to experiment. You'll learn more doing it that way than listening to any of my advice. - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 8:39pm Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 8:46pm | ||
| zakco User Info... | Assuming that a. the drums are well tuned b. the player has good technique Your room will probably be the biggest factor. If you've got a decent size room with high ceilings you can probably get away with minimal mics. I'd start with a stereo pair and a "front of kit" mic. Sometimes you'll be done right there. Especially with loops where you can perfect the live performance and essentially mix the drums right to tape. If your room is not so great you'll find that you have to work a lot harder and probably use more close mics. It'll also mean spending some time/money treating at least above/around the kit if not a good part of the room. My advice would be to stay away from the allinone drum mic kits. There are of plenty of good/cheap options out there but not a whole kit from any one brand. It's not that the kits aren't usable, but IMO the whole point of a mic locker is to have a lot of flavors. You don't get that with a kit. So what is your room like? -Z- - Tue, 21 Mar 2006 9:35pm Edited: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:12pm | ||
| Mi*coll* User Info... | I agree wholly with Zacko. Playing, tone and tuning are the most important parts for drums. If you have a great sounding, well tunmed kit and a great player you will have to try hard to make it sound shitty. That said, for a bottom rung setup, I recommend the Studio Projects B1 mics. They're not too bad for $120 if you roll off some high end. I get (arguably) passable results in my basement with one of those near the drummers (ie my) head and 57s on snare and kick. Then I use this http://bram.smartelectronix.com/plugins.php?id=5 to take away some of the shitty-basement room-sound (not too bad for a free plug), add some compression, and add some "plate' reverb. But, at the end of the day, my sub-par home setup really makes me realize how important playing, tone and tuning are. Put your money into new skins and shells before buying expensive mics. Shit in = Shit out. - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:53am Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 1:06am | ||
| zakco User Info... | "shit in - shit out" Amen Brother. This is the type of thing that nobody wants to hear. Most people would rather approach the problem with gear rather than face the truth about their shitty room, bad skins, inability to tune their kit, and above all their lack of technique on the instrument. I get this constantly in the studio. Drummer brings in shitty kit and can't hit them properly then expects me to work some friggin studio miracle to make their crap sound decent. "Can't you just fix it in the computer"..... - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 8:41am Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 8:48am | ||
| The Box Drone User Info... | Thanks for all your advice, considering I don't know the first thing about recording drums, it's all useful! Ha ha, ok, here's what it looks like... Room: shitty. fairly long, but narrow and VERY low ceilings. Drumkit: I'm no conneseur when it comes to drums, but I'd say these are for the most part rather shitty drums. The snare is crap for sure. Drummer: Totally kick ass. I think he hadn't sat at a drumset for at least 6 months, and when he set his drums up, he was tearing it up... I can't wait to hear what he sounds like after he gets back in his groove. I'm more of an experimentalist when it comes to recording, so geting a pristine realistic drum sound isn't necessarily what I'm looking for. My music is pretty ecclectic, and I'm fairly happy with using massivley effected drum machine beats, as they suit my tunes well. I've also been really into sampling weird household objects & various found-sound noises, and have made some killer beats out of these noises. The way I look at the real drum set is this: If I can make a beat that pleases me out of some platic cups & a coffee grinder, then I'm sure I can do something with these drums! So yeah, thanks again! - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:32am Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:45am | ||
| K.C. User Info... | You can always consider renting a cool drumkit and mics at L&M and even rent a room at Pro Jam spaces to get a nice big room that's treated for sound. All in all it'll probably cost you the same as buying a mic. and as for cheap drum mics, I've had really surprisingly good results from the Apex line - stereo small diaphrams are the 185s I think and the kick mic is the 125... Really cheap to buy or rent. The other, most overlooked factor (and I can't remember if anyone already said this) is new, high end skins on the kit. That can work miracles on your overall tone. I find the worst part of a "shitty" kit is that it will make other annoying sounds, like squeaks and clicks that you dont want on your track. Hope that helped. k. - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:22am Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:26am | ||
| evilkleg User Info... | K.C. has a good point. The last time I recorded we spent the whole first session isolating and eliminating rattles and pops and squeaks. Not just on the kit, but in the room as well. Remember to lube your kick drum pedal. - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 3:53pm Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 3:56pm | ||
| Tyler User Info... | I once had a really good link on this topic but I can't find it in my favourites...hmm. I think it contained mostly what was said here, it had a couple diagrams for mic placement and selection. god dammit, why don't I add things to favourites. - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 4:16pm Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 4:18pm | ||
| Aidan Pine User Info... | You say that the drums are in a room with a very small ceiling... this is not good the best thing you can do is find another room thats better soundproofed and at least a 8-9ft ceiling. Somebody mentioned Pro Jam Spaces, thats a great facility if it's in your budget. - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 6:22pm Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 6:24pm | ||
| Mi*coll* User Info... | It's funny that people keep mentioning that you want a "soundproofed" room. In fact, you don't necessarily-- the less sound that escapes, the more crappy low and mid freq reflections (with accompanying standing waves) you are going to get, and the harder a time you will have. Most studios are soundproofed, true, but that is more to address noise coming into the studio while tracking quieter instruments. What you really want is a room that has good acoustics. It is generally accepted that you ideally want your room to 1) Diffuse sound to cut down on early reflections (achieved with non-parallel surfaces, wacky looking diffusors and/or a high ceiling) 2) Absorb sound evenly across the frequency spectrum (achieved with bass traps and acoustic treatements). But, fuck, have a look at Chess Studios' room... - Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:05pm Edited: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:20pm | ||
| Aidan Pine User Info... | Mi*Coll said "What you really want is a room that has good acoustics." 100% right, my bad I meant a room that has good acoustics rather than soundproofed. Aidan. - Thu, 23 Mar 2006 4:55pm Edited: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 4:56pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | Recorded drum tracks can still sound good in an overall shitty sounding room, but you'd have to close mic everything with good cardioid mics to reject the crap coming in from behind the mic. (Keeping most of the room out) There will be more processing of the sound required to get the tones right which is why its much easier to accomplish initially with decent sound already. You need more and better mics to get the close mic technique working to your advantage. A single stereo pair will never work well when the room sounds like shit. - Fri, 24 Mar 2006 8:33am Edited: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 8:38am | ||
| The Box Drone User Info... | Yeah, I'm not so sure this is going to be do-able - Fri, 24 Mar 2006 3:06pm Edited: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 3:06pm | ||
| Gman User Info... | Awww man go ahead and do it - I don't think the end result of all this is to NOT do things. If you offer me the choice between doing something 'poorly', then trying to be creative with it, and completely giving up, I'd have to go ahead and try it and if it doesn't work out maybe I f-ing learned something instead of just listening to a bunch of nitpicking geeks and nerds. - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:39am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:49am | ||
| Ward Ensemble User Info... | what a great attitude! Remember to keep a similar attitude while processing all the very relevant opinions you've asked for on the subject. These 'geeks and nerds' may be the people who posess the knowledge you need to explore. - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 2:23am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 2:34am | ||
| Dr.VEE User Info... | Here`s an option for you. Go rent some Roland V-Drums, you don`t need mics, don`t have to worry about tuning or room size. All you need is a couple of patch cords and you can run it in stereo directly into your system. Internally you can pick what size room size you want, control pitch and decay and have a hundred or so drum sets to choose from. Also no snare rattle or over ringing cymbals. - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:01am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:11am | ||
| zakco User Info... | Gman. Not sure whether I'm a geek or a nerd. Most likely a bit of both....anyways I don't think anyone was telling him not to go for it and see what happens. No one suggested he "give up" as you put it. We just offered a little advice based on our own personal experiences doing the same. From what I can tell all of the advice was pretty spot-on. In regards to the V-Drums....ouch. Snare rattle and ringing cymbals are what drums actually sound like. If roland could find a way to include sympathetic resonance, rattle and multimic bleed they might actually end up with a usable product instead of pile of sterile digital crap. "Virtual Drums"....yeah I geuss that's accurate. -Z- - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:44am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:53am | ||
| Mi*coll* User Info... | What lonemonk is saying wouldn't be that hard to do. You could probably try it with maybe 2 57s (one for snare, one for a tom) a d112 (for kick) and a condenser (for cymbals). Shittier dynamics might even work. We're trying to help this guy out, not discourage him. My thoughts are: Throw up a single condenser over a nice sounding kit, mic the kick, and you will be 90% there. Hell, that's Charlie Watts' setup. - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:55am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:06am | ||
| The Box Drone User Info... | Woah guys, I apologize if I made it look as if I was blowing off your advice & opinions, which is not the case, it's all very much appreciated. But moving the drums into another room and spending any more than $200 at the moment are not options. I'm certainly not going to be giving up, and I'm sure that some of this advice will help me in the search for an acceptable comprimise. - Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:59am Edited: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:20am | ||
| Microphonic User Info... |  Based on what the intent of recording is, I would say: The minimum number of mics you need is one. It's better to have one signal chain that you're really happy with the sound of than twelve mics that cause you to pull your hair out later while mixing. Two mics is better (in AB or XY stereo), and if you want to spot mic after that, kick, snare, toms, hats, probably in that order. The best mics to use are going to be the ones you already have, even if you think they're shit. Case in point: I've used $20 mics on drum sessions before, even had one of the songs from the session licensed for television broadcast on a national network. Daniel Lanois used sm57s as drum overheads when he recorded Emmylou Harris' Mirrorball, and that won god knows how many awards. Just experiment with what you've got till you're happiest with the sound. If you don't have mics on hand, consider renting a few to play around with rather than spending $250 buying some cheapos. For your shortlist: audix d4, d6, i5; akg c1000, c451; shure sm57; all are inexpensive and very versatile mics. You should be able to rent a few mics for a few days for cheap. Your recording methodology will depend on your recording setup, but I've had great fun in the past getting natty, lo-fi drum sounds in a shitty room with shitty mics by submixing 4 or more mics on the fly into my computer's stereo input and then working on the stereo files. Once you get to this stage, you'll probably want to play around with EQ, so you can accentuate certain freqeucies (or accentuate certain elements in a stereo drum mix). Compression can help you manage the peak levels and get more density in individual drum sounds. Play around with extreme settings on room mics to really hype the room sound. Reverb can artifically generate an acoustic space if you record in a deadened room or work from close-miced sounds, allowing you to 'fake' your drum sound into all kinds of rooms. Also, if you're looking for lo-fi sounds, play around with bit-reduction and sample-rate reduction (the only plugin I can think of off hand is called BitCrusher) to give your sounds some real crunch. Oh, and speaking of crunch, don't forget about overdrive/distortion to dirty up your lo-fi drum sound. With regard to the room, don't move the kit,out of you don't need to. Small, narrow, low-ceilinged rooms can be great for natty, lo-fi drum sounds. Just work *with* the sound of the room, and hear the kit in that context. Experiment with the sound of the room by moving the kit around (move just the kick and snare to make it faster) until you find a spot where you feel happy with the feel of the kit in the room, and the sonic balance of kick, snare, etc. You can tweak the room with duvets, moving blankets, mattresses, etc. if you need more deadening. You can begin setting up mics - maybe room mics first, but whatever works. When I'm setting up mics, I like to monitor the mic I've got in hand on headphones and move it til I find the sweet spot, so I can hear what the mic hears and get the best placement. My apologies for the long post. Dirk - Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:52pm Edited: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:34pm | ||
| The Box Drone User Info... | Wow man, thank you very much! That's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. And thanks again to everyone else too... you can never know too much about recording. - Tue, 28 Mar 2006 9:13am Edited: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 9:16am | ||
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