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Who to vote for??
| Message Board > General Chitchat > Who to vote for?? |
| spark User Info... | So here it is: Liberals: Fraud, embezzlement, embarassment, Paul Martin would make a great U.S. senetor Fear Factor: 6 Conservatives: Hateful, judgemental, mental, want to fuck with human rights and freedoms Fear Factor: 9 New Democrates: Disorganized, Bad rep, acually dont know a lot of negative things about this party Fear Factor: 4 Quebec bloc: Irrelevent, history of racist lobbists, kinda funny to watch Fear Factor: 2 hmmmmmmmm..... - Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:49pm | ||
| KnifeGhost User Info... | NDP disorganized? Sounds like you haven't been paying attention to their campaign..... But their bad rep is their #1 negative, and it seems like for a lot of people it's enough, no matter how ill-deserved it may be.... But more seriously, if you wanna read up on the parties and their platforms, check-a this out..... http://politicswatch.com/index2.html My personal favourite is the Vote Selector quiz... It'll tell you where you line up with the various candidates..... http://politicswatch.com/VoteSelectorQuiz2004.html - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:25am | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | Green: Want everyone to be happy, stop wrecking the enviroment! Fear Factor 0? My vote. - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 3:16am | ||
| Mutilashawn User Info... | To me it's obviously between NDP and Green. My only thing is that NDP seems more realistic. Sure voting Green will get more funding and whatnot . . . but that would be almost a "wasted vote" and could mean another four years of a Liberal or, even worse, a Conservative government. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 8:12am | ||
| cooper User Info... | Hey KnifeGhost, thanks for that quiz link! It's kinda freaky 'cause I haven't decided who to vote for yet, but I scored 100% for one of the candidates! - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 9:39am | ||
| [+} User Info... | posted by the one after two: Green: Want everyone to be happy, stop wrecking the enviroment! Fear Factor 0? My vote. Idealogically, the green party are the only party with sound ethics. But what would they finally do when elected into office? they seem disorgnized with little vision after election. I totally agree with their views on ecological footprints and pollutants, but their politics and business agenda seem shaky to me. how do they plan to uphold the economy? how do they expect to pay for their endeavours? - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 9:52am | ||
| KnifeGhost User Info... | There's NO WAY the Greens will form government in the next 20 years, so there's no reason to worry about that.... I voted Green last time when a Liberal majority was guaranteed.... But this election is a tossup..... There's a _very real_ possiblity that there will be a Liberal/NDP coalition government, and in that case, the NDP would be able to make some positive change..... Legislation to change to proportional representation would be taken seriously, and that would be the greatest thing to happen for Canadian democracy, well, ever....... Cooper, I scored 100% for Layton, but I already knew I would..... I scored 75% for Duceppe, though.... Hmmmmmmmmm.... - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:38pm | ||
| V User Info... | I'm voting green. Call it a wasted vote if you want. These are pretty much two horse races anyway. Still though, if I can help that little green bar on the poll chart up by another notch then it at least shows that people are thinking about the environment, and not just about relations with the US, military prowess, or eliminating defecit. - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 1:14pm | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | Green won't form government this election (or next or the one after....) but they just might pick up a seat here (Victoria) or in Saanich / Gulf Islands, maybe even on the Sunshine Coast or upIsland. Now I might not want the PM to be Green, but I'd love to have a handful of Greens in Ottawa, especially from MY riding. The reason people think the greens can't hack it is b/c they have no experience and the reason they can't get experience is b/c no one will vote for them b/c they have no... (sort of like trying to find a job when you're in highschool and every job posting says "at least two years experience"). Voting Green is like: Dear Ottawa, Fuck you. Love TOAT, Victoria - Sat, 12 Jun 2004 1:25pm | ||
| Broccoli User Info... | The problem is the vast majority of young-type people don't vote. GET OFF YOUR DUFF - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:49am | ||
| Two After Three User Info... | A vote for the Green Party is definitely not a wasted vote, especially if you live in Saanich/Gulf Islands...where they'll probably actually win. First of all, we should be worried about voting an MP in who will best represent OUR community...not just worrying about voting for this guy so that that guy doesn't win. That's the only reason the conservatives have a chance this year; cos people are disgruntled with the Liberals. But no one really realizes that the Conservative party of Canada is the closest we'll get to having our own George Dubbya. Scarry... Read the platforms, and vote for who you think will best represent YOU. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:12am | ||
| Mutilashawn User Info... | Steven Harper is a homophobe and he also wants to put abortion rights out the window!! Bad bad Conservatives!! - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:47am | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | "Bad bad Conservatives" agreed. Two After Three, Great handle :) - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 2:22pm | ||
| Brand X Jesse User Info... | The Green Party is a lost vote, but I'm sure their percentage of votes will be much more relevant than past years. Ideologically it would make much more sense for them to put all of their energy into a provincial election and not bother with a federal attempt. BC would be a great forum for them, as opposed to somewhere like Alberta that would see enviromentalism as a threat to the industry and their jobs. BC is one of the only places I can think of that can actuallly make a lot of money supporting the enviroment as opposed to the usual, other way around. but again - they won't make a dent and it's a shame the parties that seemingly attempt to keep the people happy and stay honest don't just merge their parties to take down the big evil one. Hasn't anybody learned anything from Lord Of The Rings? - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 2:48pm | ||
| jersey User Info... | Vote GREEN you uncle fuckers. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 3:04pm | ||
| Mutilashawn User Info... | word Brand X Jesse, WORD!!! - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 3:42pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | After watching the televised debate on CBC today it sure as hell won't be any of the top 3. PC speaker was a pompous git, Liberal was nothing more than a programmed automaton, and the NDP moron was just a clown. And where did they put the green rep? Sitting in the freakin audience! Think I'll just do a protest/write in and put Jay Brown as the write in. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 3:54pm | ||
| Rick James User Info... | I can understand people who disagree with some of the policies of the Conservatives, but they'll vote for them anyway, because they're the one party that has a shot of ousting the Liberals and sending them a message that we will not be ruled like slaves. I can understand people who disagree with their policies completely and as a result won't vote for them at all. But what I cannot understand is why anyone would want to vote for the Greens. Not only is a vote for the Greens a wasted vote, from the perspective of getting another Federal party in power, but the Greens don't seem to have any idea what the rest of Canada even cares about. The issues facing Canada today are unemployment, a corrupt government that thinks that they own this country and can trash it if they want to, the health care situation, the increasing poverty of the middle class, and so on. The Greens don't mention any of these things, instead focusing on the most irrelevant issues possible given the current crisis. They care about wars overseas while people are being laid off all over the place! They care about saving the rainforest while people have to wait ten hours to fix broken limbs in emergency wards! Don't any of these issues MATTER to you? At least vote for a party that knows what Canada needs fixed now. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 6:16pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | Hey mister James, sounds to me like you haven't bothered to read the Green Party platform. It has nothing to do with "saving the rainforest", it is all to do with sustainability: ie finding the ground where economic, social and ecological sustainability are possible. Hence it is highly focussed on jobs. They propose the lowest income tax rates of all the major parties, they encourage investment and would offer the lowest investment taxation rates. They propose tax shifting: ie taxes on pollution, taxes on consumption. Do a bit of reading before you say what the Greens are focussing on, it seems you don't have any idea what they are focussing on. Granted, many Green supporters only talk about the issues you mention and don't really have a firm understanding of what Green politics really are. It ain't the tree huggers party. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 7:14pm | ||
| Rick James User Info... | Actually, I went to the Green Party website and browsed through their issues list. Admittedly, I didn't look for very long, but they did seem to focus on irrelevant issues, like I said. What you say goes against everything I've heard about them, and if true, could change my mind about them completely. If you can link me to any pages that more fully explain their position on the issues you mention, I'll certainly read them. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 7:29pm | ||
| A*Funk User Info... | Two reasons why a Green vote is not a wasted one 1) Due to the new campaign finance law, your vote is worth $1.75 of your taxpayer money to the party you vote for. This means, at their current 6% national support, the greens stand to make something like $650,000 for the next election - more than they've ever had, seeing as they don't play the corporate sponsorship game like all the other major parties (or union sponsorship in the NDP's case). 2) ESPECIALLY here in Vic, Green candidates have an awesome chance of actually winning. Saanich-Gulf Islands is THE campaign for them this time around, and word on the street is that Andrew Lewis has a pretty good shot. If you lived in Ontario, then "wasted vote" or "strategic voting" concerns might be a factor - voting Liberal, for instance, so the Conservatives don't get to form the government. But this isn't Ontario, so feel free to express your real wishes when you vote - rather than voting for the party you hate least. Plus, for Mr. James... The Greens' number one difficulty is getting past this hippie environmentalist stereotype that people often mistakenly use against them. They are, in fact, far more forward-thinking and mainstream than any of the other parties want you to think. I usually think of it this way: while the "mainstream" parties are talking about how to make Canada a good place for us to live, the Greens are talking about making Canada a good place for our kids and grandkids to live. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 8:06pm | ||
| jay brown User Info... | I always vote green party,I've heard lots of people say it's a wasted vote but I couldnt disagree more. I know they wont get in but they stand for things I believe in and that is all that counts. Yes I could vote for the ndp to try to get rid of the liberals but then I'd just be voting for the lesser of two evils. The whole point to a vote is to make your one tiny voice heard and my voice wants the government to know that when it's all said and done I can sleep easy at night knowing that at the very least I took a stand for what I think is right. - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 8:50pm | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... | And imagine if enough of these "tiny voices are heard" so that they're no longer "tiny" but a FORMIDABLE opposition, so that what was once a "protest" vote is now a major Saanich-Gulf Islands Green stronghold that will send a message to the rest of our dumb-ass compatriots that YES sustainability is an absolutely fucking CRUCIAL approach to tackling economic and social concerns coming down the road, along with some of the other points Ticklefish mentioned. Sure - I can picture a hella dumb-bum bee-otches whining about "ah, you're just wasting your vote on gay tree-huggers" and whatnot....Please - let's not even go there - this is actually a MAJOR FREAKING OPPORTUNITY to establish something called a 'voice of dissent' out here in B.C., which is kinda cool, really. Pardon the pep talk nature of this post. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:00am | ||
| D�d[]Sanger User Info... | Noone should approach voting with the "they'll win, I'll vote for them" attitude as that more or less eliminates the point of voting. Without an "I WANT them to win, I'll vote for them" attitude, once a dominance is established, good or bad, it won't be budging as all the voters who really would rather something else, still vote for what they allready have as they figure, well its this or one other who will win so I'll just vote for the lesser of two evils instead of the intended 6 or whatever you have. I encourage you to vote for what you personally want without the "throwing away the vote" idea in your heads. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 7:16am | ||
| jackass User Info... | browse through here: http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/ they've got lots of info on all parties, their issues, leaders, etc. Now you have no excuse not to vote..there should be enough info there to at least form a half assed educated opinion. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 9:18am | ||
| Roar Of Fire User Info... | i'm personally voting for the green party. blah. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:54pm | ||
| Danny Silverfish User Info... | mutilashawn said it best in his first post. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:58pm | ||
| moron User Info... | Voting for a lesser of the evils is a wasted vote. You are then effectively giving a mandate to a platform you thinks only sucks just a little bit less than the other unstrustworthy, troughing scumbag pack of liars. If you think Green is the best choice, vote Green. When the other parties start seeing their votes slide over to parties like the Greens then they will start shifting their policies to entice that vote back which is a good thing. A vote for the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP is just that. A wasted vote if you prefer what the Greens are saying. The only other thing to keep in mind is that the the Conservatives are extremely dangerous to be letting near the reigns with the current climate in the States. If the conservatives win we will be sucked down along with the neocon coup happening down south. The conservatives are so in line with the States you would think the CIA was behind them (they were and are pro Iraq war for example). So the worst thing you can do is vote Conservative if you actually like living in Canada as we know it. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 4:46pm | ||
| moron User Info... | Actually, the worst thing you can do is not vote. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 4:55pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | As much as you're gonna hate reading this, I'm actually planning to vote Anderson in this upcoming election?!? Why?!? Well I saw the other candidates websites, and Anderson has the most experience, plus he never really gets into too much controversy, and actually does something. I'm probably wrong about this, though. - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 5:03pm | ||
| Mi*coll* User Info... | "As much as you're gonna hate reading this, I'm actually planning to vote Anderson in this upcoming election?!? Why?!? Well I saw the other candidates websites, and Anderson has the most experience, plus he never really gets into too much controversy, and actually does something. I'm probably wrong about this, though." -- i might also vote anderson as the lesser of two evils. i just want to keep the conservatives out! - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 5:48pm | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | "...but wait a minute Dad, did you actually say freedom? Well if your dumb enough to vote, you're fucking dumb enough to believe'em." - Propagandhi There is no excuse to vote in a racist, sexist, homophobic government. I will second that Mr. Anderson, Liberal label aside, is a good MP and worthy of a vote... but Conservitive, Rick, you'll have to do a better job convincing me other than "oh boo-hoo Liberals are so corrupt and the Greens are so Firendly." Jay nailed it on the head with his post and it was seconded by Curmudgeon. - Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:02am | ||
| Sandor User Info... | Boo-urns...Conservatives chap my nutsack! Several reasons: 1) Don't support same sex marriages 2)Want to chuck abortion rights in the trash 3)Want to increase military spending to a modern day equivalent of the Cold War 4)Haven't taken a stance on decriminalization. Canadian equivalent to those god damned Republicans basically. - Tue, 15 Jun 2004 8:12pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | A few years ago (albeit during a Provincial election), I wanted to find out whether there is an alternative to either voting or not voting. Essentially, I was hoping there was a 'None of the Above' item. I had seen the tail-end of a TV program years before which indicated that there might be a separate procedure which the voter exercises to achieve this result. Spoiling a ballot will get you nowhere because total spoiled ballots are not even reported until weeks/months after the vote is a done deal, and of course voting for one of the candidates may not be an option for people. A 'Refused' (or none of the above) ballot would be ideal, because it means the voter took the time to go to the polls, and then showed their absolute disgust. (The government cannot call those a result of 'voter apathy') They would also be separate from actual spoiled or invalid ballots. By counting the number of Refused ballots you'd have some idea of peoples dis-satisfaction. The only hard part would be advertising whatever the procedure is for refusing the vote. I read of one ocassion where the United states ended up with a State Govenor because he was runner-up to none of the above. In that case it was a minority-type government with less power than normal. (I'm still looking for that TC article in my clip-file) I phoned the federal Elections Canada office and they were not willing (or able so they said) to tell me which provinces have this is a part of their electoral method. In order to find out I was told to phone all the provincial elections offices myself. The reason it is such an intriguing idea to me as that we would no longer have to vote for someone else just to cause a minority government, most times this splits the vote in such a way to ENSURE a majority. You know you're going to wind up with someone less than angelic anyway, might as well try to slow down their power-hungry desire to fuck with your life through new legislation. If anyone wants to do a bit of digging, look into it and let us know here what happens. I'm trying to get a few hours to hastle them myself, but god-damn if the 28th is moving down upon me with great speed and I have not been able to devote the time as yet. - Wed, 16 Jun 2004 2:20pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | "As much as you're gonna hate reading this, I'm actually planning to vote Anderson in this upcoming election?!?" This brings up an interesting debate topic... in a federal election, with the current political system in place, do you place your vote based on the leader of the party (eg. Paul Martin) or your Member of Parliament (eg. David Anderson)? - Wed, 16 Jun 2004 2:46pm | ||
| Mike User Info... | VOTE - GREEN PARTY !!!!!!! http://www.greenparty.ca/index.php - Wed, 16 Jun 2004 5:17pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | We can only vote for the local candidate, which is sometimes at odds. Juan de Fuca has a rogue Alliance-turned-Liberal candidate, and generally decent guy, Dr. Keith Martin. I am loath to vote for him primarily because I distrust people who (appear) to be jumping ship for a party with greater future potential. Though I suppose it is a sensible thing to do for a political career. It's either that or spend a bunch of money to build up another medical practise. Despite all that the man himself is decent and has in the past spoken to Ottawa about my concerns about as close as I can expect from an MP. The conventional wisdom is that this local guy is going to better understand my needs. The problem for me is when you translate that to voting in the Liberals federally, I don't want to do it... The best strategy I suppose is to worry about local representation more than who you see on TV every night. Outrageous issues which are going on in Ottawa need to be less important than whats going on here. Fucked if I know. Like most of the people on this board, I don't really trust any of these bastards. True Anarchy is the only way. - Wed, 16 Jun 2004 9:38pm | ||
| V User Info... | True anarchy, that's a good one! Here's a question for you all. Would you rather vote for someone who tells you that they're going to do what you want, then doesn't, OR someone who proposes to do things that you don't like, but follows through on them? - Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:39am | ||
| jay brown User Info... | There is no none of the above box on our ballots,there did used to be the rhino party but after they actually got a seat they disbanded because they had never expected to win ever and didnt know what to do once they did. There is a none of the above box in russia and a couple of elections ago they had almost two hundred candidates running to run the country and yet none of the above won so they had to do it all over again, now that is democracy for you. As much as so many young people here and all over the world say their one vote doesnt count, well it really does and if a million of those young people got up and voted politicians would have to listen. You just dont have a right to bitch about the government or how you want change if you cant even be bothered to vote. Green party baby, they wont get in but they will get at least one vote right here cause damnit I want my grandchildren to have forests and wild animals and air to breathe, and if a million young people did the same thing they would be a force in this country. - Thu, 17 Jun 2004 2:17am | ||
| kurmudgeon User Info... | hell ya - Thu, 17 Jun 2004 4:26pm | ||
| Kurmudgeon User Info... | if you want to register to vote. go down to 2001 douglas street,even if you live in another district. if youve never voted before you will need picture id. it is easy and painless, no forms, no finger printing no orifice examination. - Thu, 17 Jun 2004 4:28pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... |  | ||
| queen bee User Info... | I keep hearing how the majority of people wanting to vote for the Green party are doing it for environmental reasons. After comparing platforms, both the Sierra Club & Greenpeace judged the NDP as being the greener party. I also think a lot of people view the Greens as being a left-wing party, but aside from valuing the environment, they're quite right-wing, which I guess isn't too surprising since they are headed by Jim Harris, a former member of the Progressive Conservatives. - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 1:04pm | ||
| KnifeGhost User Info... | Lonemonk, I'm as much an anarchist as the next guy, but an NDP/Liberal coalition government would be a good thing _right now_, far better than a Conservative government... It's no big deal to take half an hour from the community gardens, or the vegan co-op, or the whatever, and go down to vote...... - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 9:33pm | ||
| Hobo User Info... | between ndp and green my ass. green is the only way to go! woohoo! worship hemp! - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:23pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | This came up much earlier on the board, and I meant to answer it then, but didn't get around to it, but again someone has commented on the confusion as to what the Greens are. The main point about the Greens is that they really are not left or right, they are on of the least ideologically driven parties. If anything they are the "big picture realist" party. The "right" fears them, or even mocks them because of their concern for "the environment". The left pillories them for their fiscal conservatism. The environmental left ranks them lower than the NDP because they are about pragmatic conservation, not ideological conservation. There is no way to discuss these issues in a few paragraphs, and I know most people on most message boards will ignore a post that has too much in it, but I have to say this anyway. I do not work for the Greens, am not a member, and have not been contacted by them for any reason, so these views are my own, but they are formed from my own experiences as an ecologist. Just wanted to make that clear. The Right: well, yes, the Greens are focussed on the environment. But it isn't necessarily the soft and fuzzy patchouli scented environment. It is an environment that we have no choice but to recognize we are a part of, we depend completely on it to feed us and keep us safe and healthy. These are modern times, Green politics does not espouse returning us to any point in our past. We recognize that we use resources, but we need to use them wisely, and sustainably . If we don't, all our modern technology is worth nothing when the air is polluted, we can only drink water from bottles, there are no wild fish, and we have to wait in line to have an encounter with nature. Most of the right mock the Greens as nothing more than "environmentalists", but the Greens recognize that the earth is a finite place, we can't grow forever and in any direction we choose. But we can grow in many other directions, we just need to learn where Greens want jobs, Greens want to improve our standard of living, and we want everyone in the world to improve their standard of living . But we cannot all have such a high standard of living if the rate and way in which we use resources exceeds the ability of the world around us to provide. China and India are roaring economies right now, and if they all aspire to our way of life, we will run out of many non-renewable resources, at our peril, for the costs are unknown. The Left: critiques the Greens for being fiscally conservative and allegedly "pro corporation". The Greens recognize that high income taxes and many profit based taxes are disincentives to investment. If we want a truly sustainable society, then we need to provide employment for ourselves, our children and their children's children. If tax rates drive people away, if tax rates lead companies to close operations and lay people off, if payroll taxes make companies hire fewer people, these are not good things in our society. We want jobs, we want to improve our standard of living, and we want everyone in the world to improve their standard of living. To deny others what we have is arrogant and cruel. The Greens agree that it is vital to provide local jobs, to ensure local people benefit from the utilization of local resources. But the Greens do not agree with the notion that taxing corporations and wealth at high rates provides anything beneficial to local people. All it does is drive that job creation tool (the investor) to look elsewhere. We need the wealth we have to stay here, to be of local benefit to us, otherwise the whole point of the high taxes, which was to level the playing field so that working class folks stand a chance is null and void, because there are no jobs for anyone . The other point that the left makes about why it is necessary to tax corporations, investors and wealth at high rates is to generate revenue for the government to be able to provide critical services to the citizenry (Health, Education, Legal services etc etc). Under a Green policy structure, however, the reason why it is not necessary to raise those taxes (and may be desirable to lower them) to provide those services, to improve those services, or to create new services (like providing national daycare service) is because tax revenue comes from another place entirely: consumption. Corporations would ultimately have to assume not only the rights of a person, which is the root of corporate law, but the responsibilities of a person . Full cost accounting: you pollute, you pay for it. You have to raise your prices to recoup for your cleanup costs. Therefore businesses who can do the same job without creating waste/pollution can charge less. Guess which one the consumer will support? Whichever one can bring the good or service home at the lowest cost. And if you have your tax structure shifted as the Greens propose, that good or service that comes to you at a lower cost is also the one which is the most environmentally benign. In the end, the forces of the market can be made to come to bear on improving the standard of living and the shape of our environment if tax structures are shifted in such a way that the most profitable route to take is also the most sustainable. It is also unavoidable that the end will come if we do not appreciate the limits of our natural world. If the search for profit comes at the expense of all else, trickle-down economics will do noone any good when there is no "environment" to live in. The Greens are the only party today that is not interested in ideology. The Greens are interested in acheiving a sustainable society, by whichever means will work, be they ideas from the left or the right. - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:14pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | damn, sorry about the length of that! - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:23pm | ||
| josh User Info... | The utopian vision of the green party is admirable, and it gives me hope that people like that are getting a real percentage of votes, but read their platform. http://www.greenparty.ca/platform2004/en/themes.php It comes off like a pipe dream. I don't know how you can read that and not find it ideological. I agree with every single view they hold, but as I read through it I can't help but think, CAN THEY RUN A COUNTRY? Running a country comes down to a hell of a lot more than a set of lofty ideals. I can't find a single, definitive plan of action to take us from point A,(where we are TODAY) to point B (ideal, self sustaining, socially responsible society). Why would I vote for a party, regardless of their ideals, that I don't think could run a country? I think KnifeGhost is exactly right. The best thing for this country RIGHT NOW is an NDP government, and barring that, even a combined liberal NDP party would be astronomically better than letting the conservatives get their hands on the reins. Read the NDP platform. If it wasn't for the overall tone that actually sounds grounded in reality, you'd think you were reading the Green Party Platform. Every single point from the last post is addressed by the NDP. http://www.ndp.ca/uploaded/20040527091443_Fed.NDP.Platform.eng.sm.pdf One thing I thought was interesting, looking at the polls, is that a combined NDP/Green party would almost be in the running with the grits and the tories. I'd vote for that party in a heartbeat. **steps off soapbox** Josh - Sat, 19 Jun 2004 8:04am | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | Of course the Greens have some lofty ideals, all I meant is they are not locked into most people's understanding of ideology, they borrow heavily both from left and right politics. They don't stand a chance of gov't, so of course they can afford to be more idealistic. The NDP doesn't stand a chance either at governing. But, especially for those in Saanich/Gulf Island, it is time for a watershed and time to get Andrew Lewis into the house of commons. Remember, there wasa time when "Reform" had no seats, seemed hopelessly idealistic (in a right wing way), and noone gave them any credit: now look at them. Make no mistake, teh Conservatives are Reform. - Sat, 19 Jun 2004 9:51am | ||
| KnifeGhost User Info... | Yes, VOTE GREEN in Saanich/Gulf Islands....... Again, with and NDP/Liberal coalition government, legislationg for electoral reform (IE: proportional representation) would be taken _very_ seriously.... Voting NDP this time could mean voting Green next time will send somebody (or a few people) to Ottawa..... - Sat, 19 Jun 2004 2:14pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | It's a real toss-up who to vote for. It's either the same old politicians and their failed promises or maybe you're going to vote Green. They seem a good choice, do they not? Their image is new and fresh. And surely they're the most environmentally-friendly, given their name? And they are doing good things in Germany and New Zealand, right? Well actually, no. Even the former leader of the Green Party of Canada, Joan Russow, has expressed her concerns about the party platform and now she votes for the NDP. Greenpeace has surveyed all the parties on their commitments to energy, genetically engineered foods, endangered species and protected areas, and Canadian involvement in the US Missile Defense program (Star Wars). Based on their report card, they are endorsing the NDP as the best vote for the earth. ( see http://www.greenpeace.ca/e/action/election2004/ReportCard.pdf ) As for me, well, the Conservatives and the Liberals are a non-issue. I'm not even going to go there. So the choice narrows to the NDP or the Greens. I decided to do a little research, see where they stand on issues important to me. Here's some of what I found. I only touch briefly on a few topics - more information can be found on their websites, at http://www.ndp.ca and http://www.greenparty.ca. Regarding education, the Greens plan to make tuition more affordable and decrease student debt by providing needs-based grants. The NDP will do more to expand access to post-secondary education through reducing tuition fees by 10% and then freezing them. They also go farther with plans to halt the privatization of research (to allow research to proceed outside the limitations and priorities of corporate funding) and to prevent the creation of private, for-profit universities. Culture. Both parties will increase support to the arts. The NDP goes farther by ensuring media diversity and domestic ownership of telecommunications companies. Canada's increasing income gap. In their platform on economic justice the Green party will increase access to information and to the social safety net. They will push to reform the UN and the World Trade Organization. And they will create a National Economic Defense Agency that would allow swift government responses to economic emergencies without being subjected to "political considerations." This doesn't reassure me! The NDP specifically address the income gap. Some of their proposals include increasing affordable child care and affordable housing, ensuring that Canadians making less than $15 000 a year pay no federal income tax, and creating 2 new national holidays to help parents spend more time with their children. They will raise the federal minimum wage annually, tied to the rate of economic growth. Abortion. The NDP will ensure that women have access to safe abortions. I couldn't find any comment on the Green website. Same sex marriages. The NDP supports extending civil marriage equality to same sex couples. Again I couldn't find a statement on the Green website. Gender identity. The NDP will amend the Canada Human Rights Act to ensure a person cannot be discriminated against because of gender identity. The Greens refer to gender in a traditional family values sort of way. With a picture of a man showing a woman how to use a computer they speak of gender balance and supporting the ability of women to provide care. Free trade. The Greens propose to stick with the current international organizations and trade agreements but improve them. For example reforming the WTO, and renegotiating trade agreements to include punitive tariffs for nations failing to act on ecological reforms or protections of human rights. The NDP supports fair trade, in recognition that NAFTA and the organizations such as the WTO don't work for Canadians. They want to protect Canada's right to determine economic solutions and let communities make decisions in their own interests. Ok so these are only a few issues. But what jumps out at me is that environmental issues must be addressed within the context of social justice. And this is where the Green party falls down. I will be voting NDP. Consider all this food for thought, input into discussions on how to vote strategically. And for those of you not interested in voting at all, let me encourage you to vote NDP. They have a strong commitment to pushing proportional representation for the next time around which will help ensure that all votes actually count. We stand to lose so much as a country in this election if the Conservatives get in. And splitting the progressive vote between the NDP and the Greens might lead to a Conservative majority. Let's hope that doesn't happen. And let's remember that some of Canada's best social programs (such as medicare) were founded by Liberal minority governments with the NDP holding the balance of power. - Sat, 19 Jun 2004 7:07pm | ||
| Kurmudgeon User Info... | i think i am going to vote green. first reason: either the liberals or the conservitives are gonna win. and the ndp will hold the balance of power. these two riding, victoria and saanich/gulf islands the greens actually have a chance to win a seat or two. second: the enviromental issues. greens are propsing shifting the tax base to CONSUMPTION, NOT INCOME. therefore you pollute u pay. if you want to drive big suv u pay environment tax u want to drive hibryd-biodiesel vehicle u don't pay tax. all rhetoric aside it seems to me the best solution to protect the environment, given human nature to have more. third: each vote means $1.75 of public money for the party to use next year to promote thier agenda. increasing potentialy there funding by 6 million dollars. i wouldn't want a green majority but a strong voice would be healthy for our country. - Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:47pm | ||
| josh User Info... | You want to vote green, vote NDP: (from their platform) Jack Layton and Canada�s NDP will kick start the clean air revolution by: � Leveraging the federal government�s remaining 19 per cent stake in Petro-Canada with a new Crown corporation focusing on conservation and renewable energy and committing Canada to creating jobs through green energy self-sufficiency. � Putting Canada on track to be a global leader in new environmental technology by using the new Crown corporation to establish innovation centres in solar, tidal, wind and geothermal power across Canada, located near fossil fuel centres to ease in the economic transition to a sustainable economy, and by providing tax incentives for renewable energy businesses to locate in those areas. � Imposing hefty fines for polluters that match the clean-up costs (the polluter-pay principle). � Using the new Crown corporation to invest in under-used industrial capacity to re-tool machines and create jobs by building wind turbines in Canada and using a new national infrastructure program to foster markets for wind energy. � Fully phasing in over four years a tax shifting regime to transform incentive, subsidy and investment programs to focus upon green and co-generated energy, including wind power, solar energy, tidal power, biofuels, and energy efficiency as well as transitional technologies such as combined heat-and-power and community energy systems, rather than those that contribute to climate change such as fossil fuels or that produce toxic residue such as nuclear power. Implementation will be sensitive to and include negotiated adjustments for regional economic impacts, maturity of sectors and establishment of compensating strategies. � Taking responsibility to fairly negotiate, promulgate and implement the regulations in respect of Crown Share Adjustment Payments (CSAP) for Nova Scotia to ensure that Nova Scotia receives its fair share of resource revenues which has been provided for and established in Federal Legislation. � Making the necessary changes to ensure the spirit of the Atlantic Accord is achieved in practice and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are treated fairly. � Working with Saskatchewan to ensure it is treated on an equitable basis with Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador with respect to energy revenues and equalization. � Establishing a just transition fund for energy workers and the communities in which they live and providing assistance to coal-dependent provinces to close coal plants. � Assisting provinces to shift from coal-powered plants through a National Power Strategy that meets Canadian needs in a sustainable manner, providing a means to export cleaner hydro power from Quebec and Manitoba to coal- and nuclear-dependent provinces. continued overleaf� � Developing a transition fuel strategy that maintains an adequate domestic supply of natural gas to replace oil and coal by directing the National Energy Board to ensure Canadian energy needs are met before allowing unlimited natural gas exports to the United States. � Creating the Canadian Climate Exchange, using market economics to generate revenue for green energy and sustainable development by auctioning off emission credits to corporations, with a steady decline of available credits over time. As the price for pollution credits rises, the financial incentive for corporations to pollute will decline, with the auction proceeds funding Canada�s green energy transformation. � Supporting family farms by expanding incentives for ethanol as a transitional fuel and supplementing farm incomes by importing innovative ideas from states like Iowa, which rents strips of land from farmers for wind turbines. � Helping northern and remote communities avoid expensive diesel by using Canadian technology and importing innovative ideas from Alaska, which replaces high-cost generators with wind turbines. � Maintaining the moratorium on oil and gas exploration off the Pacific coast and in the Great Lakes. � Working to establish a university degree program in green technology to support the education of Canadians to work in this emerging industry. � Establishing a national building energy-efficient retrofit program to reduce demand for electricity, with funds coming from and profits going to the CPP and by using tax incentives to create housing in city centres to fight the effects of urban sprawl. � Establishing a commission to recommend innovative federal financial and taxation steps, like shifting current taxes to green taxes or environmental incentives in a revenue neutral framework. - Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Me? I'm totally pissed that yet again there's no Communist or Marxist/Leninist party candidate in my riding to vote for. I have always voted for them because IMO it is the ultimate protest vote; American observers go nuts when they see that people would actually VOTE for a Commie and go public with it. Perhaps they put me on a special list (I can only hope so!). Plus I play in a band with Goluza so how can I not? I feel that a vote for the Greens is simply depriving the NDP of a vote and that, since they haven't a hope in hell of ever getting a seat that it's just as wasted a vote as a vote for the Commies or ML. I have a certain amount of respect for Keith Martin; he actually ran for the leadership of the Alliance and got a whopping 2% of the vote or something and his travel expenses are apparently the lowest in the Commons (while his riding is almost the furthest away; he flies economy apparently). But he's still a political opportunist of the first water as are almost all the candidates. I like Turner in Vic and would probably vote for him if it were my riding but it sure looks to me like it will be one of those "all dressed up with no place to go" elections for me. Maybe I can cause a scene at the polling place like my late buddy Big Tim, who, when asked to put his hand on the Bible in order to vote said "I'm not putting my hand on that THING!". After a lot of shouting he got to vote anyway. Fuck 'em all and send them to the re-education camps, I say! - Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:21pm | ||
| WastedYouthCrew User Info... | NDP negative - they do support programs and such but in order to do that they will raise taxes. The frenchies are crazy and as for the green party ya great they want to help the environment but thats there main platform if they actually won they would have no clue what to do in any other issues. I'm goin Liberals there not the best but at least they seem to have SOME clue what there doing unlike the BC liberals! - Mon, 21 Jun 2004 7:16pm | ||
| Brand X Media User Info... |  | ||
| anon505 User Info... | Alright I have just finished reading all of the posts in this thread and am suprised (well not really i guess) that as usual there are other candidate options out there (well one anyways =P ) that people have just glazed over without even researching in the least....... Majority of people are only aware of those parties/candidates that are projected to them on the boob tube or in some other form of mainstream corporate whore propaganda and so base their votes simply on that (which is absolutly mind numbing to me but i guess it goes to show the state of western "civilization") I may be wrong but I am almost positivly sure that not one person on this entire forum has even so much as mentioned The Canadian Action Party. (I garuntee that most of you are going who the F*** is that right now and those that arent are rolling their eyes ;], And no I do not work for them either) Having seen the movie "The Corporation" http://www.thecorporation.tv/ amongst other things I entirely agree with the green party in it's stance towards sustainability.....guess where else that is a fairly big issue now. However even the most ignorant among us has got to be aware by now that the very independance of our country that we have all come to cherish ,whether you are of 1st or 6th generation, is at stake. Ever since the whole selling out of our country by Mulroney to our cousins downstairs we've been on the hitlist of big multinationals as a prime source of natural resources and we are seeing a direct implementation of that right now in our own little backyard. (Weyerhaeuser and Cathedral Grove ring a bell?) Slap a buzzword on it and call it "Privatization".......Wake the F*** up people ITS GLOBALISM......How many of those private companies are multinationals hmmmmmm......Ask any Brit about Compass group who totally screwed over their health care system...... I could continue but my point is this....all of the "mainstream" candidates continue clucking about the same issues election after election in an attempt to appease as much of the voting populous as possible while in the meantime our country continues to be literaly bought out from under us........free market is a scam .....educate yourselves!!!!!! I dont care at this point if my vote is considered wasted or not but givin the stances of the other candidates - Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:54pm | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | the dude running for Action is like 79. Lots of talk of money reform... not a priority for me. Nice plug thou... - Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:04am | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | My take is that this is a crucial issue in this election. Here's Murray Dobbin's picture. Globe and Mail Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 The Greens are right, right? By MURRAY DOBBIN Globe and Mail Update It is intriguing to watch the coverage of the Green Party in the federal election because the conventional wisdom -- that it will take votes from the NDP -- is confounded by the party's actual policies. While the analysis is likely correct, a look at Green policies reveals that this party is really a Conservative alternative, not a social democratic one. Its fiscal, economic and even environmental policies would be a near perfect fit for the old Progressive Conservative party. In fact, the Greens are led by a former Tory, Jim Harris, and under his direction have become the quintessential small government, pro-market party. Their social analysis says virtually nothing about the structural causes of poverty, and their solutions borrow from both the former PCs and the Alliance. They talk about how a Green government would "enhance the existing network of . . . school nutrition . . . and food-bank programs . . ." to eliminate hunger in Canada. Those who study poverty with a view to ending it see food banks not as a solution, but as a symbol of everything that is wrong with the way governments approach poverty. The party is committed to smaller government in a way that no other party is, except the new Conservatives. With respect to the devastated federal public service -- characterized by massive downsizing, unprecedented stress levels, completely inadequate staffing to carry out department mandates and years without real increases in pay -- the Green Party has a single response, and it sounds a lot like Stephen Harper's: "Reform the public sector to be more responsive and accountable." This is union busting by another name, and seems to promise the continuation of the right-wing assault on government employees. If you want the public service to be "responsive," the logical solution is to return it to functional staffing levels. The Greens' fiscal policies are among their most reactionary and problematic. They toe the Bay Street line by promising to "lower taxes on income, profit and investment, to promote increased productivity and job creation." As for addressing the problem of chronically high unemployment, the party takes a page out of Paul Martin's book of maintaining extremely low inflation -- Greens will still fight inflation by putting people out of work unless unemployment rises above 10 per cent. These policies have been notable failures for the past 15 years -- lowering wages, increasing the productivity gap with the United States and creating mostly low-wage jobs -- and certainly have no place in the platform of a party that pitches its appeals to social democrats. Any increase in revenue from promised Green taxes on "harmful activities" would be neutralized by lowering income taxes, the most progressive and fair taxes we have. The Greens also call for an increase in property taxes, a regressive tax. They are committed to using surpluses to ". . . reduce the national debt." In other words, the party is to the right of all the major parties, which are now committing billions for spending on social programs that Canadians say they want. One of the most remarkable aspects of the Green platform is the lack of any commitment to using government legislation or regulation to accomplish core environmental goals. Here are just a few examples: "The Green Party will: Empower [bioregional] stewards to seek intervenor status in legal actions that impact the health of the ecosystem; . . . work with local environmental groups to reduce pollution levels in the air, water and soil; promote sustainability through education; and monitor the diversity of species, the levels of pollution and the health of the ecosystem."These are not the actions of a government committed to using its mandated power to actually protect the environment. The party also supports the corporate sector's position on self-regulation: "The Green Party will assist and encourage Canadian companies to attain ISO 14000 certification, the international standard for management." The ISO 14000 has been almost universally condemned by the international environmental movement as ineffective and unreliable. Those Canadians thinking of voting Green because they believe it is progressive had better do their homework. There is more to this party than the user-friendly name would suggest. Murray Dobbin is author of Paul Martin: CEO for Canada? - Tue, 22 Jun 2004 5:32am | ||
| jay brown User Info... | thats kind of funny I figured everyone knew what the green party was already. Why vote for a party just cause they save trees? I like their politics, an n.d.p. green party split would be awesome.. - Tue, 22 Jun 2004 7:54pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | The federal greens have nothing to do with saving trees. "Saving trees" or not saving them is entirely provincial jurisdiction, as is management of all natural resources with teh exception of fisheries. - Wed, 23 Jun 2004 8:39am | ||
| The One After Two User Info... | its getting close to election time and they pick Conservitives to win Victoria, Esquompton and Saanich... If you are into not seeing this happen, remember to vote on Monday. I think I'm liking NDP in Victoria, Green in Saanich/Gulf and Liberal in Esquompton/Juan De Fuca. If I could pick the winners I think the contrasting colours would look very pretty on an electoral map, with blue sprinkled in up Island. - Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:34pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | funny, last I had heard, the Conservatives didn't stand much chance in either Vic or Esquimalt, that both were saw-offs between Libs and NDP. Koury has continually offended people at debates in Esq by being extremely arrogant, and acting like a child towards Keith Martin. But, overall, I would expect that I don't know a damn thing right now. Depends on whose poll you read.In the Globe yesterday (or the day before?) it showed a distinct drop in Conservative support especially in Ontario, with an equal rise in Liberal fortunes. - Wed, 23 Jun 2004 2:54pm | ||
| Nik Olaz User Info... | i say, as long as the conservatives dont get anything i'm fine. - Wed, 23 Jun 2004 9:43pm | ||
| jackass User Info... | as much as I don't like it...I think the Conservatives are going to clean up. I doubt they'll take the majority gov't, and I can only hope for an official NDP opposition. I think I'd rather see a Lib/NDP minority gov't, or ideally an NDP majority, but there's just no talking sense to people these days. - Thu, 24 Jun 2004 7:24am | ||
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