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This is About The Victoria Police
| Message Board > Controversy and Quarantine > This is About The Victoria Police |
| can't say my name User Info... | I have been using the Livevic site for about a year now, and it�s been useful to me for hooking up gigs and all that. I�m hoping to use the message board today as an anonymous forum to get some opinions on an interaction I had with the Victoria Police; I can�t give any specific info as I don�t want to jeopardize anything as far as any legal action goes, but here are the basics: I am a social service worker who works overnight shifts dealing with members of Victoria�s homeless population. I am walking home from work the other morning when a police cruiser pulls up, and two cops get out. They try to get my attention, doing the usual �hey you, etc.�, and I�m thinking to myself, well, what have we here, when all of a sudden they are both running toward me. One cop shouts something along the lines of �Take your hands out of your fucking pockets you fucking idiot�, and then they both grab me and I am ordered to get on the ground. It has been raining, I have been at work all night and am halfway home; I don�t want to get on the ground, I just want to get home and go to bed. But then I realize that these officers are so hopped up on adrenaline that if I don�t comply right away, I am going to get beat before they can figure out that I am not, as they later described it, the �Bad Guy�. I realize that these guys are going to act first and then smooth over any mistakes after the fact. So, I get put on the ground, with one cop�s knee in my back, cuffed and searched. The one guy keeps up a fairly steady stream of verbal abuse and tells me not to �fucking� look at him, or at the car. It sounds like a poorly scripted cop show. I have to tell the officers three times where I am coming from � what this tells me is that they are so excited by what is going down that they aren�t hearing me. After 5 minutes has passed I am on my way home again, as they have realized they had the wrong guy. When they figure this out, the one cop starts to �help� me up by pulling my hair. Now, I understand that cops have their own concerns and their own safety to worry about. Fine. There was a break-in in the area, and they thought I might be the guy. But I wasn�t. In fact, I had just come from a job where I deal with a lot of people who have run-ins with the police, and I find that I can get by just fine without resorting to name-calling or physical force. When this was all over, rather than an apology I was told that I was lucky that there hadn�t been a K9 unit, and that being bit by a German Shepard isn�t any fun. Why should I feel lucky that I made it all the way home without being attacked by a police dog? What does this say about the VDP�s way of doing business? Any thoughts? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:26am | ||
| PCreaper User Info... | Did you take their badge number/car number.... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:51am | ||
| norm User Info... | Go to the media. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:28am | ||
| Nik Olaz User Info... | fucking pigs can suck an ass. cops are a joke. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:06am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | The only thing you can do is stay polite while they go on their little power trip and then make a formal complaint to the cops. Always remain calm and polite and see the complaint through. I have found that if you keep calling them "officer" and make sure that you convey to them that you know your rights they will generally behave; if they don't (and you can prove it, even a bit) they will get reprimanded, even if it's just a note on their record. These notes will add up if they pull this nonsense too often and remember, Victoria is a beat cop's heaven; no cop wants to get fired from here. Be polite and persistent and above all DON'T LOSE YOUR TEMPER. They will try to make you do just that in order to justify their misconduct so don't play their game. Go by the book, you'll get results that way. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:38am | ||
| Daryl Armour User Info... | aww there useless. Some wigger puched my freind (wont say name) and they wouldent do anything. Awhile Before that some fat homeless native with a fro came up and broke his glasses and they wouldent do anything cause he was native. He had to pay like 400$ or somting for his glasses. But then he wrote a email to some fat teacher saying "innaproprate language" and a cop came in and bitched at him. ITS NONSENSE! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:21am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Well put Zippgun - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:23am | ||
| Japanese Air Force User Info... | I gotta agree with Zippgunn on this. Going to the station and filing a complaint, calmly, is probably your best bet. That's really harsh, and I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. Good luck! ~JAF - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:20pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | media. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 1:23pm | ||
| Livevic Scott User Info... | I'd agree with Zipgun on this one, going through the offical procedure and filling out a complaint at the station would be the most effective course of action. I don't think media would bring any positive results and would only hurt your chances of a complaint being looked at seriously. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 3:08pm | ||
| Tony User Info... | yea, but you're dealing with an infrastructure whose overriding concern is to cover their own ass. They can and will lie through their teeth. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 3:12pm | ||
| Teste Coils User Info... | The way the police are set up, its not to help anyone. Seriously. EVERY time I have ever needed help from some one, I have never received it from them. In grade 6, I had my $375 glasses (really messed up eyes, give me migraines) and then some guy (16,17) stole then off my face (after punching me a few times)broke them and they wouldn't even talk to him. Another time, I sent my teacehr an email, callering her a "goddamn idiot" and some other shit... And they could justify getting a police officer in to yell at me for 2 hours,by saying "You have made my life a lving hell, you damn hag" was a death threat, and a legitimate one at that. Cops dont help. I have NEVER recieved help from any cop. EVER. I have been taken into custody, because they thought I stole something when I was in walmart, which I never have in my life. No apologies were ever given, and n help was either. It's not really ment to help innocent people, but more punish guilty people if they think its worthwile. I dunno. Seems like a load of BS. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 3:57pm | ||
| King Bong User Info... | All emotion aside, Zipgun is right. Even though my first reaction would be to lay that fucking cop and his partner out,(I am as well trained and would bet, more experienced in hand to hand than most Vic cops), the best course of action is to stay passive and calm. A respectful assertion of your rights is really the only option at the time. Make your complaint,but don't expect to feel satisfied, or that justice has been done. Over the years I have had numerous encounters with police forces around NA, ( I'm a big , bald, tattoed, social activist with a big mouth and a bad attitude when it comes to authority), and can tell you that this behaviour is common. It's the personality type that they hire for the job. Remember that insecure jock idiot who bullied everyone in high school....he just passed the police exam. I spent many long hours at AVI's Street Outreach Services,(needle exchange), listening to stories just like this one from our clients, welcome to an every increasing club my friend. Funny thing is, a couple of months ago, after the Vic police had illegally broken into my house and threatened my wife and kids, I responded to a pro-police posting and got roasted by many of the "law abiding-cop-loving" folks who frequent this board. For many people the police can do no wrong, but it fact they are just human beings and flawed like us all.. It is time to re-evaluate not only the laws that govern our society, but the people who enforce those laws. There is lot of money in the law enforcement business..and in the end cops do what they do for a paycheck not for the high moral standards that they would claim to be their motivation. Those two cops got paid $60,000 a year to do that to you buddy..makes me wonder who represents the bigger evil in the world. Kola - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 3:57pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | complaint procedures are about as usueless as wiping your ass with money. trust me on that one. nobody there cares, and you're guaranteed that nothing will ever come of it. if you wanna piss some people off, get the news involved. all that's gonna happen if you file a complaint is some fuckhead pig waiting for the next time he sees you walking down the street alone again. and that really is what will happen, no shit. if you file a complaint, you may as well throw the paper in the shitter yourself. saves the clerk from having to do it. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:20pm | ||
| Ace User Info... | Somehow I get the feeling you are not telling the whole story. Like have you been seen with drug dealers? Do you have a criminal past? Do your friends or people you hang out with have a past with law enforcement or dealing drugs? If you have a clean record, this could be a good time to re-evaluate how you choose your friends in the future or live with this and dont forget zippgunns advice. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:47pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | That's a brutal story... and it sounds like incidents of police brutality are on the rise. I can't help but think one reason for this rise is partly due to sheeple's attitudes as expressed in that "Cops pepper spray homeless... again" thread. Basically that attitude is; if you get beaten by cops... you probably deserve it. In this case you probably "deserved" it 'cause you 'looked' a suspected criminal or perhaps, as 'Ace' pointed out, you had been seen at some point associating in some way with a 'suspected criminal'... 'cause if you had, then the police have the right to rough you up. Sounds like pretty fucked thinkin' to me.... As Charles Bukowski once said, "I don't hate cops, I just feel alot better when they are not around." - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:04pm | ||
| King Bong User Info... | SweetGrass here... Ace did you read the same post I did? He was on his way home from work, wrong place wrong time. To try to justify the cops' actions by blaming the victim on his friendships is dispicable. No excuse for abuse of power. I also agree with Zippgunn but I think you should c.c your complaint to the media! They won't do much with one but if we all did it they might pay attention. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:41pm | ||
| Troutbreath User Info... | Ace, there is something called freedom of association. It's a concept that exists in British Common Law as well as in the Canadian Constitution. The Police cannot harrass a person for associating with people they deem undesirable. You should look it up. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:55pm | ||
| Ace User Info... | Police cannot harrass a person for associating with people they deem undesirable or criminal? But isnt that what happened? Look, I wasnt accusing anyone of anything. I wasnt there. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:02pm | ||
| Danny Silverfish User Info... | and cops wonder why we hate them, and why more of them are getting killed while on duty, you wage a class war and sooner or later youre looked upon as a target kind of the same way the cops have been looking at us . - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:04pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | "class war" - Hope you're not plannin' on playin' any shows with Self Inflicted. Their drummer is totally down wid da man.... ;-) LOL!! I doubt he'd be down with this "class war" talk.... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:16pm | ||
| jake User Info... | how can ANYONE be "down wit da man" ive had enough run-ins with the cops back in ontario to know that they're all just on a power-trip. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:41pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | "class wars" are great! But only when it's the Kindergarten class vs the grade 12 class... Big kids running in terror when little kids pee on them... quite entertaining. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:48pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Here's a story for you... A couple years ago, I had attended a staff Christmas party, and a bunch of us were standing on the street waiting for a van to come pick us up and go to the next location. There were about 6 of us on the sidewalk, with random leftover booze from the party. The cops pulled up and started harrassing us about what we're doing. I explained to the cop that we were just waiting for our DD to come with the van to take us away. At this point, the other cop began IDing my coworkers. One of my coworkers was only 18, so the cop made him dump his booze, fair enough. But then, they turned and demanded that all of us dump our booze out. Everyone complained, but eventually complied, except me. I had an UNOPENED 6 pack of beer, and explained to the cop that I shouldn't have to dump my unopened case, because it's not illegal to walk around with unopened booze. His partner proceeds to slam me up against a wall, drive his knee in my back, and the other opens my case, dumps all my booze, and throws the bottles on the ground. Then I was released and instructed to pick up my bottles or else they would give me a fine for littering. Nice eh? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:52pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Here's a little story about how our wonderful police force pick and choose who they decide to arrest and not. Friend of mine is one of the rubbies that sells weed downtown on yates. No he's not your typical dumbass that rips people off, but that's not the point ;) The businesses at the alley by the Odeon appreciate him being there due to his large stature and consider him to be an asset for them in what they save in vandalism costs. The business owners have requested they leave him alone due to the reasons mentioned and the cops do just that. Yes he has a lengthy criminal record for possesion with intent and has even served time, but they leave him alone now due to the urging of the businessmen. Now I wish him no ill will, but isn't that a little messed up? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:43pm | ||
| XY-SATAN User Info... | Talk to a lawyer before going in and maybe even have him accompany you . Just so your complaint doesn't fall on deaf ears or get lost on purpose. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:51pm | ||
| D�ds anger User Info... | Police officers are human beings, some are actually there because all they want to do is save people from trash... Ever think of how meny people become police officers purely based on the fact that themselves,family or friends were victims??? You dudes shouldn't hate everyone in a blue uniform.. My friends roomate was recently let off a HEAVY charge purely because the Police officer looked at him, saw he was freaking thinking about jailtime, and let him correct the situation rather than taking him into jail for a 2yr+ stay... The cop scared some sense into him instead, and chose not to take away his job and house, and the guy was just the type you'd think a cop would hate too... On the other hand, the jock who beat everyone up in school could be a police officer as well... Hotheads with a "big" issue... Take the job purely to make up for their inadequacies by pushing around hopefully frightened, or at least intimidated people... But then again, the same is true for bouncers, security guards,athaletes, fuck, speeders even. The family even knows a few police officers and they'll say the same thing to you, there are some really good people and there are some really huge assholes... and also remember, if they know us, they don't have a problem with weed in their presence either... bet you wouldn't expect that. You guys sound ready to hit the station with a molotav... I just hope you don't hit one who IS on your sides... Zipgunn had it> Don't bait the asshole cops, slap em leagally, or just be thankful you live where you do and brush it off. I have been caught breaking the law numerous times and I still have no criminal record purely because those cops weren't about to fuck me over for smoking a little ganja... They're not ALL rookies who are sent to respond to the B&Es and fights around the city... I just felt like saying that on behalf of the cops ya can smoke a joint with. Go Dutch Police!! *recently told they rere not allowed in coffeeshops unless there was a situation to resolve due to too meny of them being stoned all the time* - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:37pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | The police are complaint based, if there's a number of complaints they follow it up and look into it. Since in your {Shaggy's} friends case, the business owners want him there cause he's obviously not making noise or threatening anyone. Now if he starts generating heat, it's another story. Here's an odd experience: One night I was walking home from a friends place, and I must of been feeling sick cause I was wasted off 6 beers. Suddenly the paddy wagon shows up, asked me where I was going, home of course. So the police took my remaining beers and put me into the back of the wagon. Next thing I know, they drove up in front of my building, let me out, gave me my beers and said "Have a nice night". Now that's wierd :) - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:53pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | I've lived in this town my whole life and I actually know just about everybody here; the cops the junkies the bikers etc. Most cops are reasonable IF YOU ARE REASONABLE ALSO. I have had my minor run ins with the VPD when they had their dander up about something or other and have even run afoul of them, yet I have NEVER been arrested nor have I ever spent the night in jail. Why is that? Simple, I've never given them the excuse to bust me for anything (well, almost never), never called them "pigs", never screamed at them when I was pissed, never NEVER got physical with them and ALWAYS showed them at least a modicum of respect even when they didn't deserve it and were, in fact, acting like fucking pigs. Even when they were busting the Caledonia house or other benign house parties I always called them "officer" and at least tried to pretend I was sober, and I always asked what exactly was wrong, what laws were being broken and what could be done to resolve the situation. You must realise, cops would rather just leave you alone rather than bust you; it's a lot of work (especially paperwork) and most of them are just people like yourselves trying to do a shitty job to the best of their ability. Yes, of course, some of them really are professional bullies and psychopaths but these nitwits get weeded out pretty fast by the ones who are actually in the force to serve the public. I know at least a half dozen cops personally; they are all very nice, sensible people who usually think a lot like you but when they get a complaint from one of the good burghers of Victoria they have to at least pretend they care even if the complaint is completely unwarranted. The gig at the 50/50 last weekend was a perfect example; there were at least 8 cops there and I talked to at least 4 of them. They only wanted the noise to stop, gave the venue an opportunity to hide any booze that might have been there and said they would be back if it didn't stop. They were polite and correct and when they asked me to leave and I explained that I had to rescue my gear they were OK with me hanging around and waiting till the crowd thinned out. No problem at all. Remember you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. Oh yeah, the one time I really saw the cops behave in a ridiculous and dangerous fashion (at a gig on, believe it or not, Pender Island, where 2 cops pulled a crazy power trip on about 150 really drunken revellers at a very isolated party, which led to several racially motivated arrests, beatings and dozens of pepper sprayings which was in response to a fabricated noise complaint) I made a formal complaint to the RCMP which, coupled with a whole lot of similar complaints to the same office, resulted in the officers in question being reassigned to Surrey! Revenge is sweet! - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:51am | ||
| Knoblin User Info... | Fuck a Pig. Some nazis did some nice things in uniform too. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:21am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | they don't need an excuse to bust you scotty. not everyone has been as lucky as you. it's a fantasy world where cops need a reason to do anything gramps. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 8:24am | ||
| King Bong User Info... | In my never humble opinion there are only two types of people who become cops... 1.People who think that they can 'change' the world. 2. People who wish to control the world. The 'changers' become jaded and cynical after a few years on the job, or they become totally apathetic and desenitised just putting in time till pension.I don't like the idea of frustrated or useless people controlling my fate! The 'controlers' get off on some level from intimidating and dominating you. Like all control freaks they are masking an emense insecurity and as someone said in an earlier post most likely they are ex-victims. A dangerous mindset absorbed with what is best for their sense of sercuity. These folk will beat you with their nightstick to save face. As far as the force weeding the bad cops out..please get real, there is a shortage of new recruits for many urban police forces nationally. Like Zipgunn said, it's a shitty job. Once in, bad/good don't matter much. Unless your a complete 'bad lieutenant' cop ala Harvey Kitel, they really want to keep you on the force, so a little brutality, a little theft or graft gets overlooked for the 'bigger' picture. It's a shitty system, lets burn it ok? Kola - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 8:51am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | Shitty job indeed. Id be in jail now if I was a cop probably. Too much free shit everywhere. And beatings - oh the beatings. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:12pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | The best thing to do when being confronted by the cops is yell "FUCK YOU PIG, DOWN WITH THE MAN!" whilst fingering them in the face. When they get aggro at you yell "Im going to kill you and your wife and kids!" See, they get relly scared as soon as you threaten their familia, and they politely tell you to carry on your way. I know it sounds unorthodox but, try it sometime, its gauranteed to work wonders. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:32pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | i'm a cop and i can tell you the best things about being a cop are beating up innocent losers for no reason and free hard drugs and free drug money and free hooker anal sex. that blaire bitch should come for a ride in my squad car and then she can write a new song about it. call it cop cock catcher and sleep your way to number one on the billboard charts. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 4:39pm | ||
| KnifeGhost User Info... | And if you run out of blow *shrug* just confiscate some more.... - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:31pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | it's the name of the game..... - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:22am | ||
| Stinky McScruff User Info... | I have been in the same situation (mistaken for a car thief in Toronto) and it isn't a pleasant situation. You can't argue or you get accused of defamation, you struggle, it's assulting an officer. It is totally helpless situation I have to agree, stay calm and say as little as possible, cooperate and hopefully it smoothes over. The reason for saying as little as possible is because it is your right, and you are allready being stripped of your rights by forcible confinement (basically) and being defamed by them. I really can't believe the 'don't look at us' comment, that is just plain scary. FASCISM SUCKS!! too bad more people don't stand up and say "Hey! I will not stand for this kind of shit!" VIVA LA REVOLUTION - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 4:50pm | ||
| bastard User Info... | Last night we were at a party that had less than fifty people in it and the Victoria Fascist Police Squad felt that 35 kids singing Kareoke was deserving of the 5 Squad cars and 2 Paddy wagons, well over a dozen pigs, that was sent to squash this people's insurection. So they just barged in and started hauling people of to H.Q.One of my friens (who was sober) got fuckin beat down just for looking a cop in the eye and asking a simple question: "what gives you the right" and everybody was asking: "how can it be legal for them to do this". It Isn't. WHAT THEY DO IS COMPLETELY ILLEGAL! but what the fuck are you gonna do? How fast do you think the receptionist throws your police brutality complaint in the trash after you walk out of the office. And if you every get to actually take them to court who's the judge going to believe? It's a losing battle from the start so "why bother fighting them" you ask? CUZ FUCK THEM THAT'S WHY. I refuse to give them the satisfaction. If the worst thing they can do is throw you in jail for a few hours, look them right in the eye which they fuckin hate and tell them exactly what you think. Fuck the fuckin pigs we will fight you till we die! - Sun, 14 Dec 2003 1:10pm | ||
| Toutbreath User Info... | That's good advice there ML7Mike. Another thing to keep in mind is the Police are very carefull about their cars. If you're in the back seat already try kicking out the windows. The officers will usually start crying like little girls and get you out of there as fast as they can. If all of this good advice should fail and you find yourself at the police station just do what i always do: "Hey listen, if you let me go I'll tell you about the real criminal King Pin in Victoria, he goes by the name of ROSS B AY! - Sun, 14 Dec 2003 1:11pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | no pent up aggression here. i let it all out on a regular basis. no ill will towards women. i only seem to be singling you out for no good reason. you should really just enjoy the attention. - Sun, 14 Dec 2003 1:19pm | ||
| Gunga Din User Info... | I think it's funny. - Sun, 14 Dec 2003 9:06pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | ...cause we, are the Punk Police, and you are, UNDER ARREST!!! - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 8:18pm | ||
| Damocles User Info... | Hey, you guys have nothing to worry about, I just pissed off the chief himself. I get busted crossing the street and I'm fucked. The media in this city can do sweet fuck all. The spin doctoring that goes on will win every time. - Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:20pm | ||
| Aladdin User Info... | I am really sorry to hear this and I�m sure a lot of people have been in the same situation. It�s time to fight back. Check to see if there were any surveillance cameras in the area and hopefully you got these bastards on tape. All police cars have surveillance camera as well. File a complaint. Sue them for harassment and go to the media as well. What the Victoria Police did to you is bullshit and unnecessary and if you don�t see to taking action about your complaint of police harassment, it�s going to happen to someone else. Remember you are not just filing a complaint for yourself, you are helping out the community for ever ones good will! This is an on going problem in Victoria and it�s just going to get worse if everyone just sits back and takes the abuse. Good Luck!! - Sat, 27 Dec 2003 3:31pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | hey aladdin. no one asked for your opinion, so rub that lamp of yours backwards a few times and get the fuck back inside and shut the fuck up. - Mon, 29 Dec 2003 1:02am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | ...on the other hand all of us have been waiting with bated breath for the pearls of wisdom that drip out of your ass Mr. Fuckface. Thanks for all the enlightening insights, both on this thread and elsewhere. - Mon, 29 Dec 2003 9:34am | ||
| Aladdin User Info... | Can I call you just Fuck face aswell? I really prefer it. I will call you Fuck Face and you can call me Dickwad. Dickwad and Fuckface--can you see us?--holding hands. - Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:56am | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | the pearls of wisdom that drip out of my ass have more validity and relevance than all your tone deaf, bargain basement, second-hand recordings combined. and seeing as i am just randomly spouting off -- well that says a whole lot about your past work. sea of shit rings true. and aladdin i said shut the fuck up. so stick a sock in it, lamp rubber. - Tue, 30 Dec 2003 2:56pm | ||
| Aladdin User Info... | As I said before, go kill yourself fuck face. And if you need help! I will volunteer. I've been to jail, and I�m not afraid to go back. - Tue, 30 Dec 2003 7:57pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | I love that fuckface kid man. That's the best shit on this piece yo..... - Wed, 31 Dec 2003 2:02am | ||
| Ebolavire User Info... | If anyone's still reading this I agree with Zippgun way back at the start. Definately see it through. Be patient but don't give up. Cops can be real assholes because they're human like every other asshole. - Thu, 1 Jan 2004 9:29pm | ||
| Dan Barker User Info... | hey el fuck face! go eat a dick you fucking PIG. ALL POLITICAL PIGS GET SLAUGHTERED!!!!!!!! - Fri, 2 Jan 2004 9:22pm | ||
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