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local bands should pay to play?
| Message Board > Music Chitchat - Heavy > local bands should pay to play? |
| canon.docre User Info... | I've been kicking around this idea in my head to make shows easier to pull off, and to get underground DIY crust/grind/metal/punk bands on tour to break even easier. I was thinking I would get the local opening bands to chip in $20 each or sometihng, or have EVERYONE pay cover, even the bands, with no guest list. Every show I've put on in the last few years I have lost between $150-$500, no exceptions. This has been something I have anticipated and saved up for, but as another show I am putting on is looming around the corner and the cheap venue I had lined up fell thru, I realize I just can't afford putting the show on, no matter how hard I would be trying to get people to show up. I don't think its any stretch to assume that most of the bands that play local all-ages shows don't have any illusions of ever "making money" off their band. The best case-scenario for most of these bands is finding a label to at least pay for getting the record pressed, and maybe breaking even on tour. At this point in my life, I just don't feel that playing in a band entitles you and your posse to a free ticket into a show on my dime, even if you're playing. You are there to SUPPORT the touring band, right? You are there to have some fun? Put your money where you mouth is, literally, and chip in on the guarantee for the band. Don't like it? You definitely don't have to play my shows, and if my views on this are somehow so contrary to what you feel you are entitled as a DIY band playing a $5 all-ages show, you don't have to come out to my shows either. This idea of all the opening bands cooperating to make a show actually work, and not break the bank for anyone, kind of already goes down. I have certainly given out-of-town bands money out of my own pocket even if I have opened for them, and wasn't even putting the show on. Also, I have teamed up with other bands to put on shows and split the bill as well as postering duties and the like. Anyways, what do you guys think? Most of us are paying to play anyways, let's start cooperating on a larger scale in order to pull off shows, and get bands paid properly so they come back, and tell all their friends. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:19am | ||
| Rack-A-Lamb-A-God. User Info... | It's the way of the road bud,way off the road.I don't like this as most bands are spending there spare cash on jamspot rent,maintenance of gear,A touring vehicle,food,accommodations.Telling a band they have to pay to get into the show they are playing is a crock.You best be telling any band that travails here they are going to have to pay at the door,before they come here.Or there would be some pretty pissed of people. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:39am | ||
| Tyler User Info... | he said local bands. not touring bands. local bands paying. I don't think this is a bad idea. some people in bands often pay anyway (Austin of Black Cloud is one example) and some people pay extra because they "get it" that the promoter is often losing his shirt. I've lost similar amounts of money ($50-200) on some shows - mainly because I expected more people to come. It's frustrating to individually hand out hundreds of handbills at shows, put posters around town and schools and UVic, invite hundreds on facebook, list all over the internet, and do pretty much everything imaginable... only to have 30 people show up. 30 people can't sustain a venue rental AND the cost of a touring band's ferries. no matter where you book the show. some rules I've set for myself: -no more shows where the bands come in more than one vehicle. I can't support two vehicles on a ferry, both ways. -getting bands to hide people at the toll booth -no "guestlist" outside of the local bands and anyone who has helped lend equipment (troy) or offered to work the door, even though they often end up paying anyway -approach the people who sneak in and explain my monetary loss to them -spend as little as possible on posters/printing, do as much internet and word-of-mouth advertising as possible, or cheap methods like handbilling, since $250 of postering seems to be as effective as $50 of postering these days I don't lose money every single time. it depends on a lot of things. but it's insane that so few people came to Kidcrash or Iji when I did so much advertising/inviting/hyping and the bands were so good. five or six years ago, that wouldn't have happened. *cue "young kids these days don't care about local music that doesn't match what they see on muchmusic" rant* seriously though, everyone who goes to shows these days go to hang outside and drink, then leave with their friends who are in the band. partying comes before music. or they'll go for one band. nobody wants to hang out inside, mingle, meet new people, see awesome bands they haven't seen before, etc. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:39am Edited: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:50am | ||
| RubberBox User Info... | I don't see how getting another 10-15 people to pay a $6 cover is going to make you break even if you are consistantly loosing $150 - $500 per show. Most people in bands have enough expences between their jam spot rent and gear financing that they hope to actually get paid a little for playing a show. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:52am | ||
| Tyler User Info... | 15 people x $8 = $120 that would have taken one of my shows from a dissuading loss to "minor setback" territory. I think local bands have accepted that it's very hard to get paid at an all ages show. and that the money would be best to go to the touring band. also we're mainly talking DIY punk/metal/crust/grind/hardcore/etc, from what I gather, if that makes any difference. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:58am | ||
| Sike Melman User Info... | I dont see a problem with setting up a show and charging each band say .. $20 to play if its an all ages venue. Fact: All age venues cost venue rental, soundguy rental, possible stage rental, possible damage deposit that can be lost in 5 seconds of some asshole destroying a toilet or whatever, posters cost money.. i totally see Canon's point of view on this one.. This doesnt differ much from say 4 bands pitching in on everything to do an all ages show, which in all liklihood would be far more than $20 per band, more like $120 per band. But instead of trying to get 20 disorganized douchebags to organize a show, you have one guy doing all the legwork and it costs each band member $5.. Id GLADLY pay $5 to play a cool all ager. bar shows?> NO WAY, different scenario. Grim, Rubber.. go put on a dozen local all ages shows with touring acts and your outlook will change instantly. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:04pm | ||
| T. Depression User Info... | having bands pay to play is a bad idea no matter how you look at it...but living on an Island that costs a band $200 to get on and off, we definitely have to look at our options. This is a pretty small city, but that's only half the problem. We don't have enough local bands to support a scene of any size right now. Regardless of genre, a city needs a vibrant scene that supports local bands, regularily, to even think about successfully bringing in touring bands. In most cities, you book a local band with a draw to open for a touring band to boost numbers...in Victoria, finding a like minded band with a draw (for a lot of genres) just isn't possible. Maybe shows just need to be mixed gennres again? If 40 hardcore kids show up to any given hardcore show, 20 punk kids to a punk show, 40 kids to a metal show, 40 kids to an indie show, etc a mixed bill has the potential to bring out more peopel. Not ideal, but it is a small city. How about all the promoters in town, chipping in to rent out a cheaper industrial space, or run-down store front away from houses, etc? Getting bands to pay to play has gotta be a last resort. Getting the word out on what's going on, etc, and trying to get more kids into this shit, should be a priority. How come nobody in victoria posters for their radio shows? How come nobody is doing zines? Why are there no new bands? - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:33pm | ||
| Kyle User Info... | $5 is pretty low for cover... why not charge more? - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 5:56pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | Punk rock economists refuse to acknowledge the phenomenon of inflation, and feel gig cover prices shouldn't be raised from the de-facto standard of the 1970's. Honestly though, lots of kids can't afford more than that, and the rest don't feel like it. I'd rather everyone come in, even the people that can't afford it period, or wouldn't pay no matter what, so I tend to let a lot of people in for free who would otherwise just be sitting outside the show. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 9:11pm | ||
| goff User Info... | so You let people in for free but local bands should pay to play with no guest list? i think i would rather be one of the freebies watching - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:12pm | ||
| T. Depression User Info... | Simple economics say that Victoria shows with out of town bands should be more expensive than shows elsewhere in the country...yet shows in Cities like Calgary, Edmonton, etc are more expensive...and bands don't need to cover ferry costs. I don't think $8 for a touring abnd and two local openers at an all-ages space, is even close to unreasonable. (especially when most kids these days think nothing of spending 475 a month on cell phone bills!)...and $10 to $12 for a bar show is nothing when people don't even blink at spending $8 for a beer at Smiths. - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:13pm | ||
| trevor corey User Info... | anyone ever try having a concession stand? I knew a woman who set up two small propane grills out at the Keating auction. She was selling so many $2.25 hotdogs, she had to keep buying more. From the store down the street. For 99 cents a dozen. It's like printing money. You could do veggie dogs too. ....and Popp Shopp pop - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:25pm Edited: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:32pm | ||
| goff User Info... | T. Depression is right on. most of the kids today have as much if not more money than i ever had. i just bought my booze and drugs after i had a ticket. if enough kids in this town can't support touring bands then fuckem. sorry to the ones who want it but it's up to you to get that shit happening - Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:39pm | ||
| Kyle User Info... |  | ||
| goff User Info... | you goin to the show tonight? - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 9:22am | ||
| Kyle User Info... | Yep. I hear the line up includes a guy reading a book - you guys must be very excited about that! - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 9:51am | ||
| superslacks User Info... | Just to add my voice to the "this is the worst idea ever" camp. If you're going to complain about a flawed business model, don't forget about the fact you're trying to run a business, so don't ask the workers to pay. You need more customers. Common sense tells me you need to find NEW people to come to your shows. Here's an outsiders POV; if you're going to call them ALL AGES shows, make them really all-ages. It seems to me they're generally narrow-genre small-time punk/metal bands that appeal to the 16-19-year-olds. Yeah I know, I'm generalizing here, but look what forum list this discussion's in. Broaden the musical styles and you'll probably get more people coming out - not at first, of course . . . . It would help if some of you kids took a bath once in a while too . . . - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:06am | ||
| Troy User Info... | I would support this idea.. In fact i did this for the most part last night. Without having read this. Then again it was a secret house show with only a few people coming out so the locals playing i asked to chip in to cover the out of town bands costs. I still took money out of pocket to cover it. As i refuse to not cover a band's ferry costs. I want them to come back. All Ages can be done well, I have had shows were i technically "made profit" but then paid that money out to bands. It has happened rarely. I need to look into the circumstances of those shows and try to do it like that again. Save the "profit" for future shows losses. Doing shows in this DIY hardcore/punk/metal/crust scene is a lot different than bars / even other scenes here. Turnouts in general are down for all AA shows it seems. Except perhaps a few out there. to superslacks. I would say a lot of them are all ages. but also that there is very few of the 16-19 year olds coming to shows. For the most part my hardcore shows have more of the 20-30 age bracket at them. So to come back to some responses i have seen here I would be down to try some more mixed genre shows. See where that may get me? I have found lately that I can get same turnout with No Postering/small number of posters and just internet and maybe handbill / word of mouth. Then again the shows i did well on i did do a lot of postering. My costs are usually pretty low. I use cheap venues, have my own sound equip. So usually i just need to make at least $350 with one out of town band and no postering. For such a low number i still sometimes will only break $180-$250 on a show. AND I WILL CHARGE MORE THAN $5. I have done shows from $5-$15. and bigger "fests" for $18 a day. - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:30am | ||
| goff User Info... | "Yep. I hear the line up includes a guy reading a book - you guys must be very excited about that! -" Jym was pretty sarcastic about the whole thing too until he found out it was Chris Walter. he has a couple of his books so he was pretty stoked. plus he probably has more of a Draw than we do - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 1:14pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | I don't really intend to run this like a business, the idea is just everyone breaks even, and the touring band gets the excess because their asses are on the line. Most bands go screaming into debt on their first tour, and in reality most subsequent tours. I have run shows where the band and I broke even, but that is by far an anomaly. If the bands in the underground punk/metal/hardcore scenes want me to keep putting on shows they will either have to help out, or do it themselves because I'm not capable right now. Its as simple as that. I mean, from where I stand, as a musician in a band that usually plays these, if I don't keep putting on the shows they aren't going to happen and my band won't get to play any shows. Why shouldn't all the bands have an equal stake in that? I just literally can't afford it right now. Mixed genre shows it is. I personally have diverse tastes so this isn't going to chap my ass. - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 2:07pm | ||
| Sati User Info... | Makes total sense. I've never understood why all the financial burden would be on the promoter of a/a shows anyway - for the glory? I always assumed from all the h/c shows I attended way back that the bands were all going in on the expenses together. No one should be expected to take the fall on their own for nerdy bands like that. haha. Plus doesn't everyone want to do a/a shows? You'd think bands would think it'd be worth a few bucks to get their shot at corrupting the youth in their own special way. You can look at it as a good initial investment, since kids buy loads of merch (moms will pay for clothes & you want them in your shirts) and they don't know enough yet not to idolize you bozos. And then follow you into bars later on. And yep, mixed genre shows rule. I had friends who used to put these on just so all our friends in different bands could hang out together. I co-ran a fest based on this and it did great things for the city, if I do say so myself. And my favorite divey bars all started out doing this, helped to develop their little communities - and imho should start up again. - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 3:08pm Edited: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 3:11pm | ||
| darcy User Info... | I don't think local acts should HAVE to pay to play. I can get behind passing a hat around, or even just mentioning a donation in passing, but it sounds crazy to ask someone who you have asked to perform a service to pay for it. It's like getting an actor to pay to be in a play you casted him into, or getting a painter to pay you to take the painting. I'm all for promoters, bands, and whoever else making money, but it's like taking money out of a shared banking account and passing onto the partner. Again, if it got lost, I think it's great if local groups wanna chip in, but they shouldn't be forced. Mixed genre shows are great, but they only really work when you have different promoters promoting them. You can't have a punk/reggae/indie night and only have the punk guys promoting it, you need everyone on board. - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 7:37pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | ...monkey see, monkey do! - Fri, 24 Jul 2009 8:20pm | ||
| Sike Melman User Info... | I still think $5 to play a 'well organized' all ages show is a steal. Would you go play the Cobalt for $200? Well that trip right there loses you $100 getting on the ferry $150 if you throw in gas.. Highly unlikeley you will make much more at that venue if there's the usual 3-5 bands on the bill. So if you have 5 people in the band, go play the Cobalt for $200 pay, lose $150 you have just paid $30 each to go play a bar. How many bands here have driven up to Nanaimo Cambie on a Sunday and played for $15? Well that trip costs you $50 in gas if you are in a v8 van or take multiple cars, so you all shelled out there. I guess if you are in a local band that doesnt aspire to play out side of the GVR then ppaying $5 to play an all ager seems extravagant.. To me it seems like a fair price, especially if the promoter agrees to break down expenses at the end of the night and split the money as per whatever is agreed ahead of time. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:09pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | Chipping in for a good all ages show? Sure! If you are good enough you will sell lots of merch and make your money there. Bar show? Not in a billion years. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 2:08pm | ||
| Rack-A-Lamb-A-God. User Info... | The point I was trying to get across in the beginning.But you have a way with wards Mr. Hell. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 2:32pm | ||
| Kyle User Info... | How many bands here have driven up to Nanaimo Cambie on a Sunday and played for $15? What a joke the Cambie is. Fuck that place. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 3:21pm | ||
| Jl User Info... | "I don't really intend to run this like a business, the idea is just everyone breaks even, and the touring band gets the excess because their asses are on the line" well then dont complain about losing money. Its all part of "the music business". You are showing your good faith by putting up the cash(regardless of profit) for these shows without acknowledging inflation. 5$ for ANY show is an absolute steal; I remember most of the all agers I used to play(backporch ObRc, garry oak, fernwood etc..) were charging upwards of 8$ for entry AND they did have consessions to sell water, pop etc...(sure they were expensive, but how else will you stay afloat WITHOUT costing the people providing the entertainment). Regardless if they(punk, metal etc... crowd)aknowledge inflation, its just a fact of life. Raise the cover charge to 8$, have a consession selling water etc...(a bottle for 2.50$; you may scoff, but if you want money then that's what has to be done). All I hear is how hard it is to put on a show; when all you really do is a)book a venue b)book a band c)rent a sound system. You may not want to run a show "like a business" but if you want to make money; YOU HAVE TO. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 3:21pm | ||
| trevor corey User Info... | Grimjob said "wards" instead of words. LOL. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 5:06pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | My buddy Ward may or may not agree with that. The 'A' and the 'O' are on opposite sides of the keyboard. - Sat, 25 Jul 2009 5:44pm | ||
| tyler User Info... | not even that bad of an idea//smoke it get high - Tue, 28 Jul 2009 1:32pm | ||
| Sike Melman User Info... | yeh my band are playing about half a dozen all agers from here to Ontario in August and only one is below $8 and thats Thunder Bay at $5 (but in a commercial venue where they surely have drinks etc for sale) Mind you other provinces mostly have slacker liquor laws so there are a few all ages that are have bars too.. - Tue, 28 Jul 2009 1:50pm | ||
| Doc User Info... | Last I heard Vic Event Center was able to do something similar for shows. All ages allowed in, and drinks from the bar with photo I.D. I think that there should be more venues like that for music. I also recall a couple of years ago that Legends, or whatever the hell they call it now, was having all ages shows from like 5-8 pm on weekends. Whatever happenned to that? I thought that was a good idea. ~Peace of mind through piece of ass. Doc - Tue, 28 Jul 2009 2:17pm | ||
| Ottoman User Info... | Agreed. It was a good idea. I guess people are less likely to worry about minors because they usually don't have much to spend. - Tue, 28 Jul 2009 6:08pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | That's good news about the Vic Events Center and all-ages with a bar. Last time I put on a show there they wouldn't do that .. And I'll let you guys know how my new "business" model for putting on shows works out, I'm putting on at least one, possibly two shows in august. - Wed, 29 Jul 2009 8:28am | ||
| Lucius User Info... | Put us on the bill and we'll pay the $5 each! Regular People. Cheers, Lucius - Wed, 29 Jul 2009 5:14pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | hey lucius, thanks for the support! I'm waiting on confirmations from some other bands, I will let you know if there's still room for another opener in the next few days. - Wed, 29 Jul 2009 7:51pm | ||
| TheBlack Pixie User Info... | All Ages shows: As I run them, bands are to understand that they are not going to get paid to play. I am all for the idea of having the bands chip in a little green to put on a killer, well organized, all ages show because they are, in my opinion, way harder to run than a bar show. Bar shows: I wouldn't make the bad pay to play, as a promoter, my loses aren't that terrible if I have a low turn out. I'm never in it for profit, I take little to no money from my shows. So I guess the profit factor only affects me in terms of wanting to pay the band ( a show of support for the band) and if I'm doing an all ages in which I've rented a hall, sound system..etc - Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:14pm | ||
| Chip Shetfield User Info... | I've been putting on money-losing all ages shows for about 7 years in my small town, and there is no way I would ever under any circumstances ask the opening band to pay in order to play my shows. The bands are (theoretically) helping the show already by spreading the word and bringing in friends and fans that might not come otherwise. I realize the situation in Victoria is way different from mine and that there's a ferry that immediately makes the costs for any band coming through prohibitively expensive, but it still seems really weird to me to ask the people who are helping the show already by asking them to pay. It's great you're looking for new ideas to make your shows viable, but I'm definitely on the 'con' side of things. - Thu, 30 Jul 2009 2:02am | ||
| trevor corey User Info... | fucking hot dogs im serious veggie dogs too im serious concessions can supplement - Thu, 30 Jul 2009 2:06am | ||
| T. Depression User Info... | I think Paying-to-play sucks...but I don't think this idea is really a pay-to-play situation. This is more like a collective show situation...everyone getting together and chipping in a few bucks to put on a show...and everyone taking the time to promote the show and make sure that people show up. - Thu, 30 Jul 2009 1:01pm | ||
| superslacks User Info... | If you want it to be more of a "collective show situation" and not pay-to-play you have to treat the bands' money like an investment or deposit and offer some hope they can earn it back. That way they're invested and will work for the show. If you make it pay to play, then you're sending the message that the local bands are on the bill because they paid for the slot, rather than earned it by kicking ass. Try promoting a show with THAT handicap. Maybe you're not setting out to make money, but if you at least act somewhat professional people might see more value in what you're offering . . . and maybe more people will show up . Only amatures pay to play, everyone knows this, and no-one wants to pay to support your hobby - even if the reality is you MIGHT break even. - Thu, 30 Jul 2009 1:37pm | ||
| TheBlack Pixie User Info... | Any promoter who can't keep their bands under control and gain their respect, isn't a good promoter. So if a band payed to play and thought it was a free ticket to be an ass or be unreasonably controlling- then I'd kick them right the hell off the bill and give their money back. - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 1:00am | ||
| Sati User Info... | Well... Canon.docre's reeeally tall! (sorry, i don't have time to read right now) - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 9:03am Edited: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 9:04am | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | As soon as door costs cover venue/gear rentals and the out-of-towners costs, the rest of the money is going straight back to the bands that chipped in. I'm not going to be pocketing a dime from this, even if somehow there is a miraculous turnout and there is money left over at the end of the night. I've never made a dime from promoting a show, ever, and that's because anything made over the costs of putting the show on have gone to the out of town bands. Not to mention my bands will be playing these shows, my band members will be chipping in as well, and by my rough estimate I will be probably chipping in a few hundred bucks to make the shows go off anyways. I'll break down my exact expenses, money made at the door, how much bands chipped in, etc, just so you guys can see how it went down. And yeah, I'm not too worried about the bands who are going to be on these bills getting all 'rockstar' on me, so that's not an issue. - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:58am | ||
| superslacks User Info... | You can explain your position and method until you're blue in the face - so long as you're using the phrase "pay to play" you'll meet resistance. http://www.myspace.com/neverpaytoplay Talk about 'collaboration', or 'partnering with the bands' - that's more what you're proposing anyway. - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:55pm | ||
| grindbastard User Info... | I will happily "pay to collaborate" as long as it keeps bands coming over to our little island. I think more people taking on the responsibility of paying for a show is great idea like a co-op living situation. Everyone chips in a little bit and this money is used to meet the needs of everyone. Note that this closely parallels but is not exactly the same as "hippie commune bullshit". As superslacks said before, I think Scott's mistake was to refer to it as "pay to play". There tends to be quite a lot of baggage and negative imagery tied to this term. When the first show of this kind goes well, I think the differences between this proposed model and the model where large promoters rip off bands will be self-evident. I wish Scott all the best with this and I will be there to help set up, play, and not get paid. - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 1:29pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | Hahah grindbastard not only will you not get paid, you have to chip in your $5 since our band is playing it and the other bands are chipping in. Start saving those pennies! - Fri, 31 Jul 2009 6:58pm | ||
| k8 User Info... | i don't mind chipping in a few bucks so this show can go down, regardless of whether my band is playing or not. if i know that the promoter is probably paying a big chunk of money out of pocket in order to host the gig, not to mention all the time put in to organizing it, then i think it's totally fair to try and help out financially, although i can understand both sides of the argument. remember when those battle of the bands were going down a couple years ago and all the young rock bands were playing them? there was some promotion COMPANY organizing them at the vic events center and legends (i think?) and the bands had to sell tickets beforehand. having not played them myself i can't say for sure, but i think that the amount of tickets sold determined how good your time slot was and maybe other things as well. in this case it always seemed to me like the bands were being exploited, and i don't think that these gigs really reflected that well on a good portion of the bands either. and having concessions at all ages shows seems to have all but disappeared. i found i could bring a little bit of money in by selling pop and candy but it wasn't particularly lucrative, just fun. - Sat, 1 Aug 2009 1:55am | ||
| Tambo User Info... | Seriously, bring back crossover shows. Mix hardcore shows with "Scene" shows or whatever you want to call them. Hardcore and metal. etc. Every show that I know made mad money was done with this. Also, get bands OUTSIDE of your group of friends, so they bring THEIR friends. I think there's a lot of things that can be done to help attendance at shows besides getting bands to pay (I mean, I know I'm already paying for gear repairs, upgrades, driving, jam rent when needed, etc.) - Sun, 2 Aug 2009 2:03am | ||
| Master Zachary User Info... | Being in a DIY punk rock band is pretty much a constant money pit to begin with, with paying for jam spaces, gas, gear maintence and upgrades, as well as any other random expences that we all know tend to pop up at the most inconvient times. It's completly reasonable to not have a guestlist, and I don't think it's unfair that as a rule locals don't get payed, but having bands pay to play seems really innapropriate to me. Ideally these bands have a bit of a draw and in effect are providing a service and are already losing money on it whether it be though putting gas in the van to get the venue, or time off work, or what have you. I don't mean to sound crass here, but honestly I think that if you can't afford to take the hit and shell out some money from your own pocket if need be then you probably shouldn't put on a show. It would be kind of like going to get a tatto and then asking the shop staff to pitch in on part of the cost to keep the culture alive. It's rough, but that's life. - Mon, 3 Aug 2009 1:44pm Edited: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 1:46pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | Well Master Zachary, I guess you have very strong feelings about bands chipping in to make a show happen, since you feel that if that is the only way to make a show happen that the shows shouldn't happen at all. Why should a band have a guestlist at a $5 all-ages show? A guestlist is a service a promoter pays to his bands, since essentially a guestlist is traditionally paid for out of the promoters share of the profits (at big business shows, this is very cut-and-dried. The promoter is forced to pay for every guestlist/promo ticket directly to the band.) Since I never take 1 fucking dime of profit out of the final tally for money made, essentially a guestlist at an all-ages show is paid for by the out of town band. When I see more people in a show who haven't paid than HAVE paid because a band puts every one of their friends on their guestlist, I start to question if by having a local band on a show that I'm actually taking money away from a touring band rather than adding to the total of people paid. In addition to this, I have asked a lot of bands to play the shows I'm putting on. No one is forcing a band to pay to play. If a band isn't interested in being part of a co-op effort to afford a show, then they don't have to play. Its as simple as that. Then all it comes down to is a bands sense of entitlement, and I'm not some rock and roll promoter who is trying to fuck bands over. I'm in a fucking band! Two of them! I know it costs money. Its still worth it for me to chip in $5 to play a show. In fact, since I usually take on the full risk at a show, I'm usually paying $200-$300 or more to play a show. - Mon, 3 Aug 2009 2:27pm | ||
| jordan f. User Info... | I think a lot of people will bitch about paying 8$ if they are playing. Unfortunitly they don't understand the promoter is losing a lot more then 8$. Bands should give money, people shouldn't sneak in. Mix bills are awsome. SHOWS SHOULD COST 10$!!! It sucks, I know. But when you aren't expecting more then 35kids you need to pay for everything. People that complain about prices. No one is making money off hardcore/punk. Shut the fuck up. You lost an extra 3$? Bummer, the promoter lost a shitload more. I fucking lose it when there is a show with 2 out of town bands and its 10$ and someone says "wow, a little pricey eh?". I don't put on shows and even I understand this. Stop being selfish, if you can afford that 15$ record you can pay an extra 3$ once or twice a month. - Mon, 3 Aug 2009 6:38pm | ||
| bandseekingdrummer User Info... | You should definitely be chopping the guestlist before you ask the bands to pay. Friends SUPPORT their friend's bands, otherwise they're not really friends. $10 isn't too much. It's cheaper than a movie and you get to interact with real humans. - Tue, 4 Aug 2009 9:53am | ||
| evilkleg User Info... | It used to piss me off when all my friends wanted to be on the guest list (because $5 was WAY too much for cover) but thought nothing of shelling out $50 at the bar for drinks! And probably more for whatever drugs they were taking. This is why we adopted a 'no guest list policy' except for members of the press. Granted, those were bar shows. It seems ridiculous for a promoter of all agers to be losing his shirt because half of the patrons are there for free. You can bet that most of those kids spent more than $5-$10 on beer/liquor and drugs but then expect you (the band) to entertain them for free. - Tue, 4 Aug 2009 12:54pm | ||
| Tambo User Info... | Zach said no guestlists, fyi, Scott. I think that's fine. I've only once asked to get my girlfriend into a show for free (she was only seeing my band), and besides that she's always paid. I maintain that I will probably not ever pay the cover to play a show. I'm not going to say for sure, as who knows what the future might bring, but I feel like there's a reason my band was asked to play a show, if not, try putting on a show with no local bands. I understand where you're coming from though, Scott. I do understand that promoters are losing money on doing shows, I get it. I still feel like I'm doing my part simply by playing, telling my friends to come, and having some amount of draw. - Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:02pm | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | I know what Zach said, I should have been more clear only really the first part of my message was directed at him. .. and Tambo, I guess you have the luxury of never having to pay to play a show since you don't put them on. Maybe you've done a show in the past? How much money did you lose? Try doing that once or twice a month. Fucking impossible unless you're rich. And you don't put them on because you don't HAVE to, you just leave it to someone else to pay hundreds of dollars to put on a show. I -have- to put shows on. No one has a gun to my head, but I fucking live for music, and live shows, and its worth it for me to pay hundreds of dollars to play/put on a show. It always will be. I'm not saying my bands only play shows I put on, but I (almost) always chip money in to shows I play even if I'm not promoting because I want other promoters to not lose faith, and to not burnout, because they all eventually do and then there's nothing to fucking do and I end up having to spend an arm and a leg going to vancouver/seattle to see bands I want to see, and my band ends up not playing shows, or playing fucking hurting bar shows that I'd rather stay at home and play regular nintendo or something. Maybe I should just say 'fuck it' and not give a shit about the victoria music scene? Not yet, I'm not quite burned out apparently. I am being melodramatic here, there are of course other promoters in town and I really only do a few shows a year these days, but there was nothing going on for july/august besides hardcore fest, and from what I can tell the co-op of promoters (some of who, yes, PLAYED IN BANDS SO PAYED TO PLAY), probably lost a lot of money. I don't mean to say that show wasn't successful, or that they didn't accomplish what they set out to do, but I still just don't understand why people are so afraid of changing the model of how to afford to get bands over. This is not fucking mcdonalds. We have a higher stake in this than "here's $5, give me my musical product." I will continue to put on shows, lose my ass, but hopefully in the future I won't have to get in an arguement with a bunch of people and will just be able to afford to pay for the losses myself rather than asking the bands to help me out. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:57am | ||
| Hitman Monkey User Info... | I think alot of people dont really understand how promoting works and what really does go on behind the scenes. I dont mean most of the people here on LV who are mostly involved in the music scene at some level, but Im talking about the average 'show goer' that really hasn't a clue. Ive heard people at shows bitching about the promoters policy and Ive said, why dont you go book a dozen shows of your own and then get back to me with that complaint. My band are playing a few shows in Toronto in a couple of weeks.. one of which we will get paid a cut of the door at The Kathedral. But the other show is a weird one.. its at El Mocambo and all ages. Each person is asked who they are there to see when they come in. Each band needs to draw 15 people before they start getting paid 100%. ie: after the promoter has brought in $150 from your bands attendees, your band gets everything else that comes in, so if 30 people show up for us, we'd get $150. There's 12 bands on the bill, so essentially the promoter stands to make a fat stack of cash after all expenses. Its a bit shady ( although Ive no idea how much the El Mo costs to rent ) but the opportunity to play such a famous club on a Saturday night, all ages with a bar, in TO, was too good to pass up. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:02am | ||
| Hitman Monkey User Info... | Speakin of promoters: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/victoria/Promoter+shows+mettle/1861510/story.html - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:03am | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | The fact you aren't paying to play that show at El Mocambo is quite surprising. I think bands that come here and get paid more than $75 are being spoiled compared to bands from here going to the mainland. In my experience, there seems to be a general feeling in Vancouver that you will be lucky to make any sort of money unless you are the headliner drawing most of the crowd or are "bros" with everyone involved. While I would like to see out of town bands paid well for their travels to the island, I would more like to see all markets paying out of town bands well to come through town. Maybe this model of doing all-agers will dose people around the world with a healthy infection of generosity. Ultimately, it's up to show goers to keep on going to shows consistently and appreciate what the promoters are bands are shelling out to entertain them...but that will never happen. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 1:52pm | ||
| superslacks User Info... | Too much whining about the cost of doing business. Any upstart band going on the road would be foolish to believe they won't lose money. Especially if they haven't got merch. The biggest gains you can make are in relationships - with promoters, bookers, other bands, and fans. Ferry expenses suck, but they also present an opportunity. Anyone who books a band from the mainland and makes sure their ferry costs are covered better make damn sure that favour gets repaid. Lots of bands from the mainland want access to an audience here but are scared off by the ferry costs. If I help a band come this way, and make sure they break even at the door and give them a place to sell merch there is an understanding that they'll do the same for me. I just booked a band here for November. The pay off? Two dates in Ontario that I couldn't have gotten on my own. It's a relationship game, kids. It's not about the money. Granted, I'm only doing bars but I imagine all ages shows aren't that different. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 4:29pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well said. Too often bands skip out on deals like that after they've come here. I have heard from various sources that for the most part bands and promoters in Vancouver don't think much of most Victoria bands and treat them accordingly. Whether or not that is true, I have seen plenty of evidence to support a case stating that it is a reality over there. The Vancouver scene itself seems cliquey and divided into classes. That makes it very difficult for a band to get over there and be treated fairly, which makes it tough for bands here to want bands from over there treated fairly. Sounds like bitching, but it does create loathing and resentment. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 5:49pm | ||
| Master Zachary User Info... | I don't understand why everybody is getting so butt hurt over this, or why everybody is acting as if our only two options are to stick with current model or have bands pay to play. I've promoted shows in the past, and I've recently started doing it agaon, so I'm well aware of what kind of work and risks are involved on the part of the promoter, and I've always taken those risks on knowing full well that there is absolutly no chance I'll ever make any mmoney off it and in all liklyhood I'll loose money. The only reason I've ever done it is because I think it's improtant that there are shows. And yes, I do feel strongly that bands shouldn't pay to play. Like I already said, being in a band is expencive enough to begin with. Right now I have a maxed out credit card that I'll never be able to repay, from being in a band. Since january I`ve easily spent over 3 grand after said credit card bill on equipment, and who knows how much else on things like strings, cables, transportation, etc. Essentially, I`ve been busting my ass and living in perpetual poverty since the day I made a desicion to be involved with DIY hardcore and join a band and nobody has offered us any money to help cover these expences. And I know I`m not the only peron in this position. I`ve never blamed the scene for this, much less asked ppromters to start tossing $5 towards band related expences. It would be crass to do so and completly oblivious to the reality that we`re all just barely scraping by. I understand what you`re trying to do, Scott, and I think it`s an admirable goal, I just don`t think that this is the way to go about it. Somebody mentioned something about a co-op and I think that is an idea definetly worth exploring and I`d be more than happy to discuss and be involved with such an option or other options to make this more affordable for everyone, because at the end of the day the reason that we`re all here is to make music more accessable to everybody. Anyways, I`m feeling like this a bit long winded, so I`ll just end it by saying if there`s anything you`d like adress or ideas you`d like to discuss, by all means send me an email ([email protected]). I'm sorry if I coming across as standoffish because the truth is I'm really glad that we're actually having this conversation. - Wed, 5 Aug 2009 8:20pm | ||
| sewnflesh User Info... | I think what Scott is proposing is a good idea. I don't see how asking the opening, local bands to chip a small deposit on the venue, sound system, and promotion costs is unreasonable. Its certainly not fair (or punk-rock) to have one person loosing 200 bucks on a show. If I were Scott I would have stopped a long time ago... If some local diy punk band thinks they are too good to put ~20 bucks on the line to play a show they didn't do anything to organize then fuck them. As various people have pointed out.. 5 bucks is not alot of money.. which can be made up by selling merch or by drinking a few less beer that evening. As others have pointed out.. playing the show might lead to great connections which is worth more than the measly 20 bucks. If your band is good people will come out and support it. - Mon, 10 Aug 2009 1:28pm | ||
| Codine Vandal User Info... | i got a simple suggestion:get better bands. obviously if you aren't making money the bands you got suck. i know i'm not gonna pay to see bands i don't like.stop bitching about making people in bands pay and book better bands. that or use your promoting money and hire some high schoolers to advertise it in the schools.or another idea is make the band promote it more.don't pay out unless they get so many people to show up. i like the band association thing,good idea. in halifax we had a meeting of all the local bands and we all decided that we should form a group which would have stipulations that if you were a member you would go to so many shows a year as a band,that way everyone was guaranteed a turnout.everyone wins in that system because if you have to go to say 3 shows a year so does everyone else so everyone makes back money. - Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:32am Edited: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:37am | ||
| T. Depression User Info... | Get Better Bands? Well, that's part of the problem. There are no "better bands" in town. So people putting on shows are constantly struggling to break even bringing out of town bands to the Island, and trying to find like minded local bands to open the shows. Don't pay out unless bands bring a certain amount of people to the show? Huh? The point isn't to book bands with a big draw...if that was the case, we'd all be booking skinny white boys playing bad reggae or funk! The point is to try to not lose money booking the music we love.Forcing people to attend X amount of shows in a year isn't the answer...getting more people to want to attend shows, because they are FUN, is... - Tue, 11 Aug 2009 11:40am | ||
| moron User Info... | Halifax is hardly an example of a positive music scene considering that there are basically no local venues for anything other than mainstream music. - Tue, 11 Aug 2009 1:21pm | ||
| Codine Vandal User Info... | that's not true,i played reflections(leave the jokes at the door),there was gus's pub, bearly's ,the attic was a counter culture bar,same with stage nine(gone now i heard)there was the pavilion there.i really can't even think of a mainstream bar there other than the dome.and just a fact for ya:Halifax has the most bars per capita in the country. - Tue, 11 Aug 2009 5:52pm Edited: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 5:53pm | ||
| moron User Info... | Sounds like your definition of "mainstream" is radically different than mine. I played Halifax this last winter and there wasn't a single bar that would book anything other celtic, rock and easily digestible metal / punk. We ended up having to do our show in the local jam spaces there since there was no other alternative available. Gus' for example (which is supposedly the alternative bar there) has a history of being very unfriendly to anything that does not include guitar + bass + drums + vocals. He pulled the plug on D/A A/D at one show from what I understand. Cheers - Tue, 11 Aug 2009 6:24pm | ||
| Codine Vandal User Info... | yeah well they like their east coast rock,different scene there but the same principles apply. - Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:41am | ||
| Dave User Info... |  | ||
| canon.docre User Info... | I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at there. Does cock grind also pay to play? Most bands in any genre are in the hole for all their efforts, and underground bands playing obscure genres usually don't have a big fan-base or anything like that, so yeah, my grind band does pay to play in most cases. I don't lose sleep over it. - Mon, 17 Aug 2009 5:33pm | ||
| tyler User Info... | i just came back from tour and this is what i learned. when a promoter does not pay you and your from out of town it fucking sucks and you want to punch them in the general crouch area. pay your 5 bucks, shut up, and grind on. - Tue, 18 Aug 2009 3:07pm | ||
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