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Ferry strikes. Your opinion?
| Message Board > Controversy and Quarantine > Ferry strikes. Your opinion? |
| korn koiler User Info... | My opinion is FUCK these lame union workers. They are assholes for holding the island hostage. As though the world revolves around them. Time for a bridge. Insult a union ferry worker today. note: If YOU are a union ferry worker or sympathizer and are offended, GOOD. . - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 1:38pm | ||
| moron User Info... | Can't have an opinion without knowing what the strike is actually about. So far the media has done a typically shitty job of explaining anything - CBC included. If they wanted to cause problems for the employer they should have just gone for an "un-strike" where they work but refuse to accept payment. This way the public ain't hurt due to lack of ferries and the employer gets some pressure against them. Anyway, if anyone actually knows what the fight is about please post specifics. Cheers - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 2:04pm | ||
| moron User Info... | Here's what the Ferry Union claims about the strike reasons: http://www.bcfmwu.com/pressrelease/docs/2003-12-05 BC Ferries Action Causes Strike.htm Lowered wages between 6 and 48 percent plus "dramatically increased hours". So more work for less money. Not something I would be too fond of either though I still think there must be a more creative strike option for them than their current path. Cheers - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 2:14pm | ||
| soap dodger User Info... | Fucking with the most important route 2 weeks before Christmas is a lame move. We already get burned, year round, with high ticket prices so that some dumbass wiping tables can get paid union wages to do a minimum wage job. Last time I went to Van I waited in the Tswassen terminal for 45 minutes for my ride to pick me up. The entire time I was there there were 3 ferry workers sitting down and shooting the shit in the waiting area. Some of the shit I overheard was: �How�s your day been?� �Long� �Have you had to do anything?� �Nope, just the crossword� enter 3rd ferry worker talk about the Canucks for 20 or so minutes �Do you think someone will come and check on us� �Nah� etc.. They were still dogfucking when I left. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 3:09pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Ferry's are the island's highway. Imho they shouldn't be allowed to strike due to it being an essential service. Don't like your union job and the better than average wages you make as well as the benefits? Shit or get off the fucking pot. Can't stand unions. Bunch of whiney fucks who don't realise how well they actually have it compared to teh regular working joe. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 3:19pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | talking solves nothing. violence solves everything. swift and blinding violence. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 4:12pm | ||
| blah User Info... | ya..i disagree with alot of what unions do as well. my girlfriend works for the ferry's. she went to work yesterday ...but was locked out and not allowed on the ship,( by management ). interesting that the general feeling of this thread is believing what the management and the fucking government say is going on. tsk tsk. i agree mcdonalds workers aren't worth alot more than minimum wage to whatever they make in management.(but shouldn't we all make a bit more money? i wish kids at mc'ds did)... but do they fight the fucking fires if one breaks out? ...uh no. do they rescue people who fall/jump overboard?..uh no. do mcdonalds workers have thousands of dollars in education for thier transport canada certifications they must have before working on board? uh...no. and on and on and on. its way to fucking easy just to make a broad generalization about people who work on the ferries. how the fuck do the rest of you live in victoria without making a half assed wage? don't be bitter cause someone else had the apptitude to get hired out of what are thousands of others who apply for jobs at the ferries every year. have any of you ever taken a jet to mexico or europe? those fucking damn stewardess'...they actually make a decent wage...yet they fuckin serve drinks and food...what the hell? so do kids at fast food resturants....shit thats gotta only be worth like $8.00 an hour (note: insert soo much sarcasm it hurts)...ahh and in the event of emergency...they make sure your sorry ass gets off the plane. don't get me wrong by my long winded rant. i don't know all the facts either..and im sure i wouldn't agree with some of what the ferries union is asking for from a tax payers point of view...but gees people...why don't you get ACTUAL facts...instead of relying on bctv news....do you believe everything CNN says about the war in Iraq....think about it. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:06pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Do people who do the exact same jobs in private sector get paid the same for having the same certs and 'qualifications' as the Ferry workers? No they don't. Majority of people I know that work in unions weren't hired because of what they knew, but who they knew and it's been that way accross the country for as long as I can recall. Unions look out for their own and nobody else, that's more than aparent with each and every union strike we see whether it be postal workers or ferry workers. Boo freakin hoo you might have to take a cut in wages or hours to keep your job, happens in teh private sector every day. Rather than be happy to actually have a job in todays screwed up economy, union workers can just go on strike and demand they recieve more which increases costs to the regular joe's who aren't fortunate enough to have union jobs. Bullshit plain and simple. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:35pm | ||
| micoll User Info... | YOU PEOPLE ARE DUMB. DID YOU GET YOUR OPINIONS OUT OF THE T.C. OR WHAT? this strike is the liberals' fault for privatizing the ferry route. if it is so essential, as everyone agrees, you don't sell it to private interests. the union has every right to strike. also, the company's requests are ludicrous, so what the fuck are the workers supposed to do? - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:36pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | "so what the fuck are the workers supposed to do?" Are they supposed to hold the residents of Vancouver Island hostage though? Imagine booking a tour months ago, being bound to contract to appear, and then finding out 2 days before you are to leave that you and your van full of gear are stranded on the rock. Thats just one scenario. I cant even imagine how it is for people who actually need to get to work on the mainland. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:44pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | You folks realise that the striking ferry workers are getting no strike pay during this strike. With 2 weeks to Xmas that tells me that they are super pissed off. Now the govt. has brought in a 80 day "cooling off period" during which nobody can strike. So now the Ferry Corp. can do what they want with impunity. I guarantee that there will be a complete shutdown at some point soon and it will all be because of "those greedy ferry workers". I say good for them, let the island be cut off for a couple of weeks and see how good it looks on the asshole Liberals. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:53pm | ||
| micoll User Info... | yeah, the strike sucks. people are stranded from their jobs, etc. BUT it is not the union's fault, it is the government's fault. i can't believe how prevalent the opinion is that the union is to blame. say your boss wanted you to take a 30% pay cut all of a sudden. what would you do? - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 6:48pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | As I said, they at least have a job at a high enough rate they'd still be above poverty level even if they had to take a pay cut, unlike the majority of the working poor or the unemployed. Wage cuts happen in the private sector all the time with people that have just as high a certification in their chosen field. Because these folks are union workers they're above everyone else in workers rights? Don't think so. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 7:01pm | ||
| blah User Info... | "Do people who do the exact same jobs in private sector get paid the same for having the same certs and 'qualifications' as the Ferry workers?" hmm...actually im not so sure this is correct. have you ever seen how much a deck hand on a tugboat makes? on another note..if i was a ferry worker, id be super pissed at my union for not having a media blitz campaign about what they actually do,and how much they are responsible for- aside from what we see when we order our shitty burgers. the average person has no clue...hence the attitude and opionion that they are grossly over paid. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 7:04pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | This average person has a complete clue on what the deck crew does. I spent 3yrs as a botswain in the CDN navy. The job isn't that hard, sorry. Dmech's are a completely different story, and are probably worth every penny. The rest of them aren't even remotely worth what they're paid, especially the managers. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 8:20pm | ||
| S.V. User Info... | I just hope they get it all sorted out so my 95 year old Gramma can come over for x-mas :( *sniff...sniff* Yeah, who am I kidding...she can swim ;) - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 8:33pm | ||
| blah User Info... | please now...your grasping at straws here. you were in the navy..and you are comparing that to any other deck hand job. anyone who knows anything about bosun's ...knows first off that that is the biggest dogfuck job in the navy...on a list of many im sure. and not the trade people are signing up in droves to make as a career choice. sorry. not saying you didn't work hard, or rediculous hours, or have to put up with way too much shit etc. but im sure you were at home by 1pm every friday. the canadian navy cant afford to leave port. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 8:54pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | I will have my say ....... " The Canadian Navy cant afford to leave port" Tell me then, who are all those canadian sailors (2500) who spent 9 months out of last year in the middle east. Our ships have been flat out since Sept 11th. And another thing, i am not a Bosun but let me tell you, they work their asses off. THATS WHY NO ONE WANTS TO BE ONE! - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 9:23pm | ||
| Nik Olaz User Info... | we should just totally nuke the fairies...by which i mean the boats - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 9:56pm | ||
| Lurker User Info... | Why do you people keep saying that you're stuck on the Island, or that you hope you can get across for the holidays, or that it would suck to plan a tour months in advance and not be able to do it after all? BC Ferries may be on strike, but they ARE an essential service, and still have runs to and from the Island. The runs are cut back, that's all. For example, the Departure Bay-Horseshoe Bay run now goes three times a day (because of the strike) instead of seven. Nobody's stuck here so quit bitching about not being able to go anywhere. Boo fuckin' hoo if you have to rearrange your plans by a few hours. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:23pm | ||
| Doppelganger User Info... | Could someone post the actual greivance(s) of both sides so that we can all gague an informed opinion rather than spout out ideologies? - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:17pm | ||
| Lurker User Info... | Bleah the government's ordering and 80 day "cooling off" period anyway so what's the big deal. Full service returns. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:27pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Until noon tomorrow when the wildcat strike completely shuts down the system entirely. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:51pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | As the race to the bottom continues.... I think alot of people have some kinda petty jealousy of BC Ferry workers 'cause their own jobs stink. Well, you could bitch and complain 'bout their wages or you can do something about your own shitty situation. Knocking other people down to make yourself feel better is pretty weak. Bottomline is, given a chance, a good chunk of the BC Ferry employee bashers would probably shit themselves for a job there. That's kinda pathetic. - Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:58pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | If I had my way, I would abolish all unions in Canada. Pay people based on performance, not fucking generic contracts with no performance incentives... fuck! Stupid unions... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:30am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | fuck you you fucking democrat - let's settle this 'un right now outside boy....heehehhehhee. who fucking cares. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:29am | ||
| pcreaper User Info... | I don't mind if the workers get paid what they get paid. The problem for the ferry corp is their contract only lets them work certain jobs. I take the ferry up to 15 times a month and have seen this first hand. The loaders only load the ferry then they go to the crew room and hang with one or two of them doing a walk about every now and then. They aren't allowed to help with cleaning/serving/etc. All the jobs seem to be like this on the ferry and I have confirmed this with ex-ferry workers that have joined my company. One even went so far as to say he felt disgusted by the whole atmosphere. Plus they can schedule to maximize overtime instead of making sure everyone is working regular hours. And if the ferry is a minute late they get overtime for the whole hour. Dogfucking seems to be all too common and I think it time for them to clear house. Unions once served a great purpose but now they have overstayed their welcome and now seem to breed below average effort. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:36am | ||
| Dr.V User Info... | I happen to work for Canada Post and the way i veiw our union is they fought for years to get us the best stuff we could, now there`s no place to go but down so everything is slowly being eroded away. Unions now are just another big business, the larger the work force the more union dues, the larger wage increese you get the more dues you pay. They protect the useless and the dog-fuckers from being fired when if they were in the private sector they would have been canned long ago. They really don`t give a shit about the regular guy. Whenever we went on strike it was a major inconveniene to Joe public and its always perceived that we want more money when we were just trying to hold on to what we have. Strikes are useless now a days, all you do is piss off the public, lose wages and eventually lose something at the table. I say don`t blame the workers, they`re just pawns for everyones anger.Blame Campbell , he will have his way with this province no matter how many protests and stikes manifest. Who voted for that prick anyway? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:00am | ||
| norm User Info... | Build a bridge. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:27am | ||
| *GKdc User Info... | What a sweet idea. Victoria would be awesome once the mainlanders turned it into Burnaby. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:10am | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | "knows first off that that is the biggest dogfuck job in the navy" Then you know absolutely sweet FA. Home by 1pm? WTF have you been smoking? Crack from the 'uptown' dealers downtown? Tell a botswain he's a dogfuck as he's hanging over the side stripping/preping, sanding and then painting for 8 hrs. Tell them they're dogfucks when they're docking ships. Tell them they're dogfucks when doing at sea transfers from AOR ships. The list could go on and on including the fucked up watch shifts. Until you've actually done the job you know nothing about what the 'dogfucks' do and don't. Deck workers on the ferry don't do the majority of the jobs their military couterparts do, hence they're not worth the wages they get. Edit - BBJones hit the nail right on the fucking head. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:15am | ||
| Manimal User Info... | I find it pretty ironic how all these people can be so pissed off about the ferry strike when none of them made a damn peep about the privatization of them a year ago. Let's see what happened back then..... Gee, they are going to contract out the management of the ferries to private hands, freeze their operating budgets, and the union contract is up in about a year..... What could possibly happen next??? And everyone seems to think it is the fault of the union just because corporations, the media, and govt spews out anti-union rhetoric all the time. I'm tired of hearing this "held hostage' bullshit that started with Gordon Cambell saying it a month ago on Chek 6 (gee I wonder which side he favours). Funny how all these people are angry about somehting they dont know a damn thing about. Yeah, let's blame yet more people who are being fucked over by the government and are blamed by everyone to boot. Gee, who wouldn't want to lose a good chunk of their wages and benefits, and work more for what they do end up getting....all just becasue some schmuck didnt see the writing on the wall? Seems weird to me people who claim it is a public asset, an extension of the highway, or it is their right to go in between the island and the mainland not only don't think it should be run by unionized people, but that the ferries should be run by people that make a decent wage. Yeah, I'd like some 8 buck an hour guy responsible for my life in the event of a ferry accident. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:44am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Interesting little bio of Ferry Corp. fuhrer David Hahn in today's TC. Seems he's an American (can no Canadian do this job for $335,000?)whose real specialty is aviation (shades of Gary Bettman!) and is best known for "streamlining" airport operations in such enlightened countries such as Argentina and the Dominican Republic. There are no details on how he achieved his results but judging from this past week's events I can guess. Where's Juan Peron when you need him, eh Dave? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:46am | ||
| some girl... User Info... | So it's okay for homeless people to protest and block off traffic b/c they're poor yet ferrie workers can't protest because they make a decent living??? The homeless can complain and we should be empathetic yet ferrie workers who want to keep themselves above poverty should be discriminated b/c people on this board are jealous of their wages. Basically, people shouldn't complain b/c others have it worse than them??? Ahhh....yah... right. (cough cough) I'm not saying that I agree with the strike-- I'm just simply pointing out how some people on this board sure do hold a double standard. Perhaps a slew of ferrie workers should get fired, become homeless (since BC has a job shortage) and then protest welfare cuts???? I agree that a person gets into unions b/c of contacts.. but that's unfortunatly how most jobs are. Harsh reality. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:47am | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | How much do you think the toll would be on that bridge that would come over here? And I would hate to be turned into a suburb of Vancouver, that is why most of us live over here, to live on an Island! If we were connected by bridge, we would be no further from Vanvcouver than Abottsford, and traffic would be just as hideous - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:58am | ||
| Manimal User Info... | Funny Zippgunn, it seems aviation is a common theme with this goverment. Our finanace minister, Gary Collins, you would think would have some education in economics. But no, he is a flight instructor. This man is holding the second most important portfolio in the provincial govt..... I always thought aviation was just a pastime of the rich. Who knew it could also pave your way to politics. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:08am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Anyone who says..."they make enough for what they do, they should shut the fuck up" should have their head checked! I happen to make a very good living, WHY?? because i stayed in high school, got an education and now have a career. I worked for that education and if someone was to take anything from me now at this point, simply because the rest of society makes 6.35 an hour, i would fuckin lose it. The fact you are in a dead end job, making pennies, doesnt give you the right to critisize others incomes. Sure, they are on strike, they have caused an inconvenience. However, if you werent such a broke ass you would be able to afford the plane ticket to get to mainland, like i have to. And,,,,,you dont think the BC Ferries people are sacrificing???. They arent making money by striking, and by doing so just before Xmas, shows their desire and dedication to do whats right for THEM. Unfortunately for bands like ML7 who have to get gigs, i dont know what to say. Probably cost you an arm and a leg to fly there. SO yes...BANDS can bitch, WORKERS (in vancouver) can bitch, MEDICAL appointment people can bitch, but those of you who bitch because they make shit loads more than you...SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09am | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | We dont have a gig. my scenario was hypothetical. Just a small example of many as to what an inconvenience it is. Build a bridge I say. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:19am | ||
| SentencedtoBurn User Info... | Alright serioiusly, I'm really interested to know what it takes for one to become a ferry worker. Some of the sentiments expressed here have made me very curious. How much education is involved with becoming a ferry worker for fuck's sakes? It's not rocket fucking science, so justifying the strike as "oh they got an education, earn lots, so they deserve the right to strike" doesn't "float" with me. I personally don't give a shit if they strike or not. Not to make sweeping generalizaitons here, but in my day I've personally known 4 ferry workers. This isn't to say all ferry workers are like this, but this is what i've experienced. 3 of them have the cummulative I.Q. of about 6 or 7 combined (and all 3 of them have raging coke problems, nicely faciliated by their high wages). And the fourth person was my former neighbour. Nice lady yes. Smart lady, no. Don't get me wrong, the right to strike is a democatic right of all citizens, so the act of strinking is (to me)justifiable. The only point I'm raising here, is that I don't agree with the fact that some people are painting ferry workers as fucking modern day renaissance people. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:24am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Cool, i would be pissed to not be able to make a gig - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:31am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | I can answer that question about what they do. First off, it totally depends on what section. I can only relate to Engineering but they must have Cert 1 and 2 qualifications which takes a college education. Similar to a diesel mechanic (20,000$ at least in college). Then they have to take a 1600$ Marine Transport Canada course. Then on top of that they have to continue to struggle in getting hired from the 1000's of applications. Again, that question of "what do they do" to get in the BC Ferries, is irrevelant. They are there, they did whatever it took to get there, unlike the Mcdonalds employee who just has to smile! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:37am | ||
| SentencedtoBurn User Info... | Alright I certainly respect those who legitimately had to learn something to get their jobs (i.e. engineers, heavy duty mechanics,etc.) But the guys that sit on the top deck, smoke for a half hour and then sweep up a small pile of garbage can fuck right off. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:44am | ||
| Manimal User Info... | Yep, some ferries workers actually require an education. I get the sense that when most people refer to the 'ferry worker' they are talking about either the person that directs you to load or the one who asks if you want fries with your burger. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:45am | ||
| BBJones User Info... | At least at McDonalds you can earn your way up to a higher salary for performing well at your job. And at least at McDonals, if you don't perform well, you get FUCKING FIRED for being a moron that doesn't deserve a wage. Ever try to fire a union employee? Fucking joke... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:47am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Have you ever tried to fire a union employee? I doubt it. Ignorance is not a validated opinion. Union members are fired every day. Here is what i see on this thread. 2 kinds of people. Unionized (myself) and non-unionized. Lets see why the NON Union people have such a hatred towards us union members. Union: 65,000$ a year Medical, Dental, Education pay ( any course i take is paid for through union) Pensions 25 PAID days off a year Compassionate Holiday Time Sick Days Administrative Bonuses Spousal/Dependant Support Non-Union: 6.35 an hour That should answer why people have such a hatred towards BC Ferries people. Get off your ass and join a union, otherwise, shut it! Anyone who says UNIONS are bad, obviously are not in a position to ever obtain that said "career". There is absolutely nothing wrong with NON UNION jobs, they pay, they are out there, however just because thats the job you chose, dont come down on those of us who wanted more $$$$$ in our pocket - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:50am | ||
| some girl... User Info... | An easy way to get rid of a union worker is to simply lay them off conditionally. This is what the Empress and other large hotel chains do--> you're kept on call and can't have a second job. If they call you for a shift and you don't show up they have grounds to fire you. Aside from this, anyone hired is always on 3 months probation: this also cuts down on "dogfuckers". Another thing, exactly how much do people on this board think the average ferrie worker makes?? Last I heard, (which was a few years ago I must admit) the start up pay was $15/hour for the low end jobs and you need to pass some first aid courses. Honestly, $15/hour isn't that much if you have kids to feed. It isn't a bad wage, especially if your single, but it's not all that great if you DO have a family. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:55am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Awesome point Somegirl, however the majority of the people on this board thinks 15$ an hour is a huge salary, quite sad honestly. So,,,,, how much does one think is an appropriate annual income?. I will put my vote on 42,000 a year is a compfortable income - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:15am | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | Still, none of the justification of unions, whether they are bad or good, should give them the right to stop ferries from running. If they HAVE that right then that right should be taken away from them. Why should their problem with their management affect the unsuspecting public? The ferries are a major part of everyting which happens on this island. They are causing 1000's of people 10's of thousands of dollars ( did ya see that one caterer who;s food all went bad while she stewed in the lineup )not to mention Van Isles big money maker TOURISM. Dont these workers realize that without the tourists half of their jobs would be gone anyway? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:16am | ||
| SentencedtoBurn User Info... | This is precisely why I went back to school. So I'll never, ever have to worry about the pros/cons of union affiliation, comfortable living conditions, or debating the legitimacy of one's income over another's. But in the meantime, I mine as well be $6.35/hr. schmuck without a valid opinon right? In the end, the strike is an inconvenience for me personally. Ahah, but when it's all said and done I hope to be flying over the Ferries on my way back to the Island with a Homer Simpson-esque "So long suckers" refrain coming out of my mouth. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:18am | ||
| Paul User Info... | who cares what they get paid. why can't we leave the island? why do we have to pay approx. $50 to leave with our car and $50 to come back when they are running? how can we change it? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:22am | ||
| jackass User Info... | if they build a bridge, Nanaimo, Victoria and all those towns close by will become suburbs of Vancouver. Nanaimo will be the new Surrey. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:23am | ||
| some girl... User Info... | The cost of building a bridge would put us in such debt that 10 generations from now would still be paying for it. I doubt we even have the enginering skill to do it. If for some reason it WAS possible, it would most likely take a decade to build. Didn't PEI build a bridge and it's been nothing but trouble?? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:25am | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | "Medical, Dental, Education" Yeah, the taxpayers sure should be paying for your education when a lot of them can't afford to even put themselves through college/university. Yet another slice of bullshit. Havenots don't deserve squat right? You were well enough off to pay for your fucking education to get the fucking job, you sure as hell can continue your own education/certs once yer in the fucking union. And don't even attempt to comeback with federal retraining subsidies/bursaries cause the majority of 'schools' they will actually pay for are a fucking joke. Private post secondary quick fix schools are the governments answer to the working poor or unemployed. Welcome to the class system folks. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:20pm | ||
| SentencedtoBurn User Info... | Well said. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:38pm | ||
| Paul User Info... | What if they built a bridge, but charged the same amount as the ferries did for a toll? $50 each way, i don't imagine it would take a very long time to pay off then. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:39pm | ||
| Livevic Scott User Info... | A point about the bridge. Due to the way the landscape under the strait is the only place they could build the bridge is from somewhere just outside of Nanaimo and it would goto near the Horseshoe Bay terminal. So even if they did build the bridge you would have to drive up to Nanaimo first to even go on it and your full trip time to get to Vancouver would still be about 2 hours. However if you lived in Nanaimo it'd be prime. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:44pm | ||
| jackass User Info... | Scott, I agree. I'm betting we both saw the same tv show about the bridge being built. It would go all through a whole bunch of little islands and would be about a 20 minute drive. It would not take long before Nanaimo, Parksville, Qualicum, Duncan, etc would all be overloaded with Vancouver commuters. I'm betting it would do wonders for people who own property there now. Don't you think it would diminish the "specialness" that Vancouver Island has now? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 1:07pm | ||
| Daryl Armour User Info... | even so.. if you charged the same amout of money as a ferry to drive on a bridge that wouldent be cool. Then you have the cost of gas and ferrys have alot more luxerie than a cramped car. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 1:09pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | I've been a union member before, have intimate knowledge of many different unions and their policies, as well as worked in the private sector and finally am running my own private business. I know what worth unions have and I definitely know the impact they have on local, regional and federal economies. Unions are a fucking joke and should be abolished. Saying that if pepole aren't happy with whatever meager salary they have, that they should join a union to make more money is pure and simply fucked up. Unions are a HUGE waste of money, the overhead and corruption in unions is so rediculous. Who pays? Everyone NOT in the union. Glad the rest of us hard working saps can help you union slobs be happy about making your $40K+ a year salary with minimal job risk, lots of perks and the rest of it. How about you actually try to work for your living. That's right, no comfy job where some group of power mongering morons protect you like a fucking baby, but where what you do at work dictates your salary and job security. Unions are NOT about performance or providing quality service, they are simply about JOB PROTECTION. They care little to nothing about the quality of service that their union employees provide. You want a prime example? Victoria School board. There are specialty schools in the district that provide care and eductation to serverely disabled children. But, thanks to the union, any teacher with more SENIORITY (based purely on the number of hours you work, nothing to do with your actual skill) can take your job if they want to, and there are absolutely ZERO requirements for that senior person to have any disability related education. None. So a person working 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 with serverely disabled kids (who has taken a lot of specialty education since they CARE about their job) gets bumped by some shit eating teacher who is only out looking to preserve their JOB SECURITY. Union cares about one thing, making money so the union can continue to operate. And many union employees adopt the same philosophy studying the union contracts. Why? So they can learn what they are allowed to get away with (read that as they learn how much they are allowed to dog fuck and everything else they can take advantage of with NO consequence). The entire point of having unions ended many years ago, yet they are still here. Gee, wonder why... The salaries of many people in unions are completely disspropotionate to people with the same qualitfications working in the private sector. You think that is because the private sector doesn't pay enough? Fuck no. It's becuase the private sector pays based on what the positions are actually worth where unions make up stupid fucking wages and demand increases every contract in direct proportion to inflation and all the rest of it. Fucking retarded! Positions are only worth what they are worth, but unions inflate those salaries in some fairy tale style with no consideration of the actual market value for such positions. Again who pays? Non-union people. Either by increased taxes to PAY for union related bullshit, or in lack or loss of services becuase unions STRIKE. gimme a fucking break! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 1:53pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | "Education" In my line of work, as long as i am employed, i qualify for 75% of all my education to be refunded. People like you totally assume and think that we are just skimming off the taxpayers, but thats not the case. My employer continues to educate so that if i do choose to carry on with another career, i will be ready! AND then, i wont be a statistic bitching about people who have it better. I worked my ass off to be where i am today, unfortunately most of us havent. I am canadian born and raised, i have a good paying job, with a good education. Who did that for me, I DID! I paid for my education in hopes i get a good paying job. How did i do that? THROUGH STUDENT LOANS! The weak or poor cant get student loans? Anyone qualifies for a student loan with mature status. ANYONE! There is no one to blame for not having an education or being able to place yourself in a "union" job other than yourselves. Stop bitching about those of us who have it normal. I sure as hell wouldnt be working for a low paying salary, WHY? Because i am in control of where i work just like EVERYONE ELSE! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:02pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | The worst thing about a bridge is that it would destroy the appeal of alot of the smaller islands which it would cross. Is there any reason Victoria couldnt have a passenger only deal like Nanaimo has, which takes us right downtown Vancouver? Id be willing to drive out to Schwartz Bay for that. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:06pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | As for what Daryl says, true enough but it would sure be alot cheaper for the overheight and length traffic. How about the Coquihalla.. that cost the government alot of money, and the toll is only $10 for regular vehicles. Sure the highway isnt as architecturally challenging as a super bridge, but is alot longer than a bridge would be.. Anyhow, dream on, even if they announced tomorrow that a bridge would be constructed, it would probably take them 5-10 years to build it anyways. Im sure in 10 years it will cost $30 or more for a passenger to get on a ferry. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:08pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | BBJones,,You are 100% correct. However, i will choose the Job protection, where i work a hell of a lot less, make a hell of alot more, and have the big guys protect my job. Sounds like a plan to me. And dont give me the Taxpayer bullshit, i paid 21,000 last year in income tax! I pay my way - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:13pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Can't remember what it was called, but they should tunnel underwater like the one from Britain to Europe or whatever it is. Looked pretty easy to make and can be dropped in anywhere. Yes it was expensive... but better than a bridge. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:13pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | I think we sit on a fault line which the english channel dosnt have.. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:15pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Actually I will give you that taxpayer bullshit. Majority of taxpayers aren't union snobs who think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter. So in all actuality you're paying a small percentile of your way compared to the average joe. And let's not forget how much of that 21k you probably got back in refunds compared to those average joes who get next to nothing back every year. The fact still remains, you get your education paid for while the working poor and unemployed are forced to go to crap private post secondary schools to even get a piece of the pie above poverty line. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:18pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Pierce, it's that kind of attitude the allows unions to survive, and the rest of the country to suffer. Just becuase you can take advantage of something doesn't mean you should. But hey, to each his own. I just hope they privatize as much of the government run services as possible. When businesses are run privately, they run efficiently becuase they have to if they want to survive. If they don't, some other business will take their place since competition is fierce in the private sector. Governments should regulate businesses, not run them. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:19pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | catapults. big catapults. with the white spot on 'em too. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:21pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | If that earthquake ever happens, we're fucked no matter what gets built. Ferries would be fine if they would just build more Spirit class vessels... The isolation does have it's perks. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:28pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | yeah. starving to death. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:31pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | You need to slim down anyway Zac :p - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:34pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | BBJones again, you are 100% accurate. The private run buisnesses do much better. I should add to my above comments. I make those comments from a "survival of the fittest" sense. Back in the day, my father "beat" it into me, that i will achieve financial stability. I agree with everything you say, however, i really need to pay for that fucking bass gear i just bought, so i choose to be spoon-fed in a Unionized Environment! Oh and Ross Bay........hahahaha catapult theory. That would be wicked!@ - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:34pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | ay - 'tis true.... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:37pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Shaggy, no offense, LISTEN TO YOURSELF "The fact still remains, you get your education paid for while the working poor and unemployed are forced to go to crap private post secondary schools to even get a piece of the pie above poverty line" I was that working poor, the whole time i went to private post secondary schools, and guess what, i got a piece of the pie. Everyone has to go to school, eat kraft dinner mixed with hamburger meat, and the ultimate Chicken Nugget Chicken Burger on toast, and spend at least 2 years in pverty, to gain the benefit of working in a good paying job! Listen, i said i get my education paid for ONCE i am employed. I had to get the fuckin education to get this job.In 8 years where i work, i have yet to put in ANY kind of refund. I got my education, got a good paying job, and started buying guitars. Now i am flat broke. Hate my fuckin job. and started to sell gear. Anyone want a guitar?? Cheap Cheap! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:39pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | How bout you take your own advice and listen to yourself as well? How many people can afford to go to school that are unemployed or the working poor? Small percentile from the working poor and 0 from the unemployed. EI won't pay for anything that runs longer than a year, yet you get a free education due to your union affiliation? That's bullshit. You make more than enough in your cushy work less get paid more job than average joe does. What do the working poor do, especially those that allready have families and kids to support? Go into debt for the next 15 years for student loans so they can actually go to college/university while you get free education? If you can't see the problem of that alone then you're nothing more than the typical pompous and arrogant union dog you appear to be. Let's sum it up your stance that stayed on course this entire thread... "I've got it good, if you haven't that's just too bad. Suck it back and move on with your pitiful non union self" THAT is how you come accross. Yippy you've got a good job with spiffy perks! To hell with people that work harder and longer hours than you do to barely be above or actually at poverty level. And you wonder why people hate unions and unionists? Time to remove those rose colored goggles before society as a whole knocks em off your face when/if the ferries get privatised and yer back being the average joe with no union job. Karma's a real bitch. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:42pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | "Victoria School board. There are specialty schools in the district that provide care and eductation to serverely disabled children. But, thanks to the union, any teacher with more SENIORITY (based purely on the number of hours you work, nothing to do with your actual skill) can take your job if they want to, and there are absolutely ZERO requirements for that senior person to have any disability related education. None." That really struck a chord here, since that exact scenario happened to my son last year. He had qualified aids up until last year, then some dumbass with NO spec needs education bumped someone that actually had the skills that they should have to assist a special needs child. Wanna see a kid that's done relatively well do a 180? Put em in that exact scenario. His last year of elementary was a living hell for him. Even the other children in his class that went to out of school care with him even remarked how "mean" she was to him. And what could we so as parents? SWEET FA! They sent her to a few short courses, but by that time his entire school year was screwed up. And a lot of that tension carries over to their homelife as well, the kids I mean. As I have said before, unions do nothing more than look out for their own. To hell with any underlying problems their members might cause, especially in the special needs aid dept. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 2:58pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Sorry to hear, Shag. I've seen it happen before and it sucks beyond belief each time it does. And like you say, not a whole bunch you as a parent can do. They certainly don't include you in their union negotiations do they... I've seen parents dedicate years of their life to trying to affect change in such scenarios... to come out of it with nothing more than increased frustration, and a lot less money in their pocket. Fucking sucks! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:02pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | geez, suck it up and move on with your no union-job-having self whiner. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 4:18pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Shaggy, how many times do i have to tell you! I GOT MY EDUCATION FIRST! Then i got my JOB! The extra benefit of recieving FURTHER education at a subsidize rate, i wouldnt know, I HAVENT RECIEVED ANY! I went to school first as a BROKE teenager, on student loans (which anyone can get), and starved like crazy for a few years. Then i got hired. Since then i havent taken advantage of any free education shit. Damn dude. FAWK You sure as hell arent giving any of those "less fortunate" any hope are you. AND, you dont think i, or any of my friends arent paying off student loans at 50,000$ I wish i could pay off 50,000 in 15 years. I wish! All i am saying is that UNIONS are better for inviduals in unions. And as said above. I chose to select an occupation which pays more. I am sorry for doing so. I will quit my job and go work longer hours for less. Right now, fuk it - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 5:08pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Shaggy, you are 100% correct in your last statement. 100%! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 5:18pm | ||
| Livevic Scott User Info... | "Is there any reason Victoria couldnt have a passenger only deal like Nanaimo has, which takes us right downtown Vancouver? Id be willing to drive out to Schwartz Bay for that." Hey Mike, we actually had a downtown to downtown service similar to the clipper to seattle in place here for a year or 2 back in like '89 I think. It was like $30 and the clipper left from the harbor down town and took you to the harbor of down town vancouver in I think an hour and 20 or something. But it folded shortly after opening due to lack of use. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 5:22pm | ||
| brad User Info... | well..someone said that they couldn't wait for the ferries to be privatised. I seem to recall some years back reading or hearing that the ferry system as a whole is heavily subsidised by the government, (i suppose they are trying to change that now ..and hence the problems) & that the main routes ie:shwartz bay to tswassan would likely cost close to quadrupel for a car and driver if privatised than it is now..and the smaller island ferries...well...those are money loosers year after year. and to get to saltspring would be like $100.00. ...like it or not, I think there is something incredible about a group of workers who will unite and defy order to go back to work...im sure all of us would hope for the same if your boss wanted to take away like 30% of your wage...AND want you to work longer hours. but of course ...im sure everyone would be ok with this. judging by the above comments...im not in a union and never have been...i do however support the ferry workers in this fight. so what if i can't leave the island for a week or two. boo fuckin hoo. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 5:36pm | ||
| micoll User Info... | FUCK THE FUCKING LIBERALS. FUCK. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:05pm | ||
| SweetGrass User Info... | A different perspective on unions... I run a small theatre company for teens and at risk youth who are producing a show this weekend. In order to pay the 10 hours of custodial costs @ $24.00/hr,to rent a high school theatre for 5 hours,( I guess it's hard work picking up those programs on the floor )we have gone to the media to gain the largest audience possible. Today was supposed to have been our interview with Go magazine. Kids got out of school early, I rented a room to perform a scene in for the show and we got cancelled an hour and a half before interviews because all cameras were dealing with the ferry saga and couldn't get to us. In order to make money to pay because of union, we lost opportunity because of union. Try explaining that to 14 year olds who spent a year working on this production... Shamelessly I'll tell you that Sat. Dec.13 @ 7:00pm at Esquimalt Secondary you can see " Of Grizzlymice and man" written by Troutbreath,include is an art show and a perfomance artist, magician. You won't be disappointed if you come. Tickets $10.00 at the door, doors open at 6:30.All monies but for theatre costs, go to students for scholarships and summercamp. Also bb and Shaggy, Troutbreath and I work in the special needs field and know first hand how brutal it has been in the schools lately. Where's the media coverage for that? - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:18pm | ||
| METALNECK User Info... | I have a small solution for people who are seriously affected by the no ferry order. I have full access to a Boston Whaler Yacht which I am probably going to put in the water tommorrow. This costs me a few hundred dollars to do though. I also have the privilege of a private function license. Also over $100. It costs about $150 to take the yacht over to DOWNTOWN vancouver and about $120 to the terminal. The yacht is licensed with 15 seats, although it has more, and only requires 2 people to operate. It has cargo space, not tonnes but enough. With a private function license I am legally allowed to rent my services as a water taxi and I am legally allowed to sell alcohlic beverages. I will probably charge $60 a person to go to vancouvers downtown core and $50 to the terminal. I will sell you beer cheap as you sit below deck comfortably listening to music or what not. I will also rent out my services for Canucks games at negotiable prices which will include transportation to and from the game. Beer both ways and no problem with the ferries. I will also rent out my services for private functions, if you can get me a slae and a full private function trip I will award a sizeable commition. I will also drop my smaller 18 footer into the water for a price if the load is smaller, like a 2-3 people with the same privilages as the yacht except only on person can legally sit below deck, so dress warm. Also it is alot faster than taking the ferries. It is approxiamately one hour to the downbtone core via yacht. Call me at home 652-2530 if interested in any of these prospects or if you can sell one of these prospects. I will have the yacht in the water guaranted this weekend and if you can not get ahold of me by phone or e-mail I will have a liason at the terminal. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 6:50pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | �If I had my way, I would abolish all unions in Canada.� Take it easy there Adolph�. �At least at McDonalds you can earn your way up to a higher salary for performing well at your job.And at least at McDonals, if you don't perform well, you get FUCKING FIRED for being a moron that doesn't deserve a wage.� The fast industry, as argued in Eric Schlosser�s awesome book �Fast Food Nation�, is quite possibly, the industry MOST responsible for the general decline in wages and living standards in the Western world. Fuck McDonalds and their lackey apologists�. �Ever try to fire a union employee? Fucking joke� Ahhh... actually buddy, there have been hundreds of 'union' workers canned by the Provincial government over the last 3 or so years. Didn't seem too hard to me.... Of course, I haven�t personally tried to fire a union employee, but then again I doubt you have either. �I've been a union member before, have intimate knowledge of many different unions and their policies, as well as worked in the private sector and finally am running my own private business. I know what worth unions have and I definitely know the impact they have on local, regional and federal economies. Unions are a fucking joke and should be abolished.� So you�re an expert in labour economics. Somehow I doubt that. I agree that some unions can be outta control and unreasonable but to pretend they�re all the same is ignorant. Let�s face it; there�s �good� and �bad� unions, just as there are �good� and �bad� private employers. To think that if unions didn�t exist we�d be living in a better world is childlike foolishness. Pretty much every rise in general working standards and living conditions can be somewhat attributed to organized labour. Public education, health care etc most likely would NOT exist today if weren�t for those bastards� damn them. Also, the abolishment of child labour and 7 day work weeks wouldn�t likely have happened either. To think that if unions were made illegal that we wouldn�t slide back into that world today is pure folly. You got to be kidding me if you think otherwise�. I worked years in the private sector, both as an employee AND contractor, in an industry that is heavily unionized, forestry. I�m no fan of the IWA, but gotta say that they are probably the main reason there are some half decent labour standards in what is likely BC�s most dangerous industry. No doubt part of the reason the IWA�s so outta control today is due to the fierce resistance by �private� employers wood workers met when they first tried to get organized. Why were they trying to get organized� well about one wood worker a day was getting killed on the job per day in the Cowichan valley alone in the 1920�s. Back then people were jailed, beaten, and even killed trying to change that situation. Anyway, the forest industry is still paying the price for those actions carried out at the behest of industry� why �cause people don�t forget� even if they weren�t part of it at the time. It�s called the collective consciousness. I routinely worked 55 � 65 hour weeks for my employers, makin� pretty good $, but I gotta say it sucked. There was no glory in it. There was nooooo way I�d even consider having a family, let alone a pet, �cause I was a fuckin� slave for a dink. That�s not cool, but that�s the reality of a lot of other people today. The scary thing is, if there was no IWA, you can bet your fuckin� life that standards in that industry woulda been worse � which would suck �cause I don�t wanna have to bury any more of my friends �cause they work for some �private� contractor that tries to cut corners to make a buck� already done it and it blows�. The bottom line is I don�t think you know as much about the world as you think you do and aren�t the wise sage you think you are or portray yourself as.... - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 7:08pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Go back and read Pierce. I take no offence to you recieveing the majority of your education prior to landing that cushy union job. What I take offence to, and thought I made myself quite clear on the matter unless you have the reading comprehension of a gr 2 student, is after the fact. You get IN the union and get a free education paid for at the taxpayers expense. Yes the union pays for you're education, but where does that money come from? Union dues right? Who pays the union dues? The union employees. Who pays the union employees salaries? The tax payers. Need me to dumb it up anymore for you? I sure as hell hope not cause this broken record bullshit is starting to get old. Sweetgrass, There's no media coverage imho due to the fact that the majority of society could care less about spec needs kids and what their families go through. Believe me, I was more than prepared to go to the media last year and raise a fuss after seeing the darker side of the not only the public school system, but the unions they employ. Too many teachers out there that don't want spec needs kids integrated in their classes and too many non qualified support aids. What I have realised after 11 years of being a parent of a special needs kid is this. If you want something you have to fight for it, but if you make too much noise expect a lot of 'supports' to vanish. Something a lot of parents can't afford to lose unfortunately. - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:24pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Done with making assumptions there, Tralier Boy? Good. I base my comments on personal experience. Am I an expert? Fuck no. But I sure as hell am educated and experienced enough to form my own opinions (which are mostly formed due to direct experience... not reading books). No shit union employees get fired. What do you think many of them get? Fat pensions? Gross severance packages? I'm talking about the lackey dipshits that can't do their fucking job. But can't get fired becuse they are under "protection" from rediculous and handcuffing union laws. And yes, thanks for asking, I have been directly involved in trying to fire union employees. I've witnessed companies fold when they become unionized simply becuase their profit margains can't handle the EXTRA cost and reduced manpower a union brings. I barely remember my union paycheques... I think it was something rediculous like $4/hr to the union. PLUS my monthly dues. Multiply that times every union employee. That makes for some pretty damn serious OVERHEAD. And what do we see these days for it? Demands for increased salaries ABOVE current market values in the private sector in almost every single case. Gee, that makes a lot of economic sense now don't it? Of course unions have done some good, but this ain't the freaking 1920's anymore. So you had to work hard to make good money. What else do you expect? Do you think everyone should have a nice cushy job where they don't have to work either long hours or hard and dangerous jobs to make good money? You get what you put into it slick. In case you didn't notice, almost every succesful person out of the private sector has worked their ass off in a big way, sacrificing most of their personal life to do it. It's a choice people get to make in the private sector, but it is a "right" everyone expects in the unionized workforce. And who the hell said I was some all knowing wordly wise sage? Excuse me for speaking with confidence about issues I've spent most of my working adult life dealing with. Fuck! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:29pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | This strike has cost me a gig in Van this weekend yet I'm with the workers. Telling people that they can't go on strike because they perform an essential service removes all their barganing power and turns the scenario into a "if you don't like it if we reduce your wages by $x/hr why don't you quit" situation which is, in my humble opinion, fascism. Kill all the unions one by one like the Liberals are trying to do and all of us will be earning less and paying more to live and eat, those of us with homes and food that is. The rest (whose numbers will soon be swollen on April 1)will have even less to lose than they do now and there will be hell to pay. Downtown Victoria and (especially) the lower East side of Vancouver will turn into dangerous ghost towns after dark (that is, worse than they are now). Won't that be fun! - Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:40pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Hey Shaggy, if you're interested, send me an email and I can get you in touch with people that fought hard on issues you are dealing with. You may even know them becuase they raised a lot of awareness during their 2 or 3 year period trying to affect change. They had political support, got a bill or something into some recognized state in the courts, but ultimately lost. They had relatively high levels of media coverage for Victoria so you may have seen or heard about it around 5 years ago. It is not an easy road trying to take matters into your own hands. They lost a lot of money giving it a shot, with no compensation, and no results apart from being able to say they did what they could, and hopefully they opened a few moron's eyes to the issues. But, what else can you do? Nothing? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:03am | ||
| SweetGrass User Info... | Shaggy My comment about the media was purely sardonic as I know all too well they are not interested in the struggle of famillies and advocates for people with special needs. I did not mean for it to sound like a judgement on what you had done. All: unions have served some very important roles in the evolution of industry, but like industry it seems it is time for unions to evolve with the times and some of their mandates are more than a little out of date. When you are hurting more people than you're helping no-one cares what the reason is anymore. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:05am | ||
| micoll User Info... | i agree with zippgun that the liberals are attempting to kill all of the unions one by one. that is exactly what these privatizations are, a way to break collective agreements. people who are against the union would put money into the pockets of campbell's business buddies. that is all this is. most people on this board are workers, and why would any worker be on the side of business and against a union? the ferries should not be run like a mcdonalds. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:12am | ||
| norm User Info... | The Liberals are essentially at fault by attempting to privatize the ferries too quickly. Maybe it's an okay idea, but they've moved too fast - now the hard-ass company running the B.C. Ferries is asking for serious concessions. Concessions that mean job losses for the union, so of course, the union goes nuts. I support the right of unions to strike. On the other hand, I can't see shutting down the ferry service, which to me is exactly the same is setting up pickets across a highway. I think the union is blowing it (although the strike sure puts the pressure on!) because they are losing all kinds of public sympathy with their militant actions. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 2:27am | ||
| brad User Info... | hmm...one thing's for sure. this is the most interesting thread i've seen on this board in a long time. its great to see peoples opinions and reasons for them, whether i agree or not. at least it is promoting discussion, and thought. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 9:39am | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | No kidding, considering the guy who started the thread is usually a supreme moron. " 'Build bridge,' angry ferry users cry, but government says don't hold breath" http://www.canada.com/victoria/story.asp?id=AAC3C144-D8E0-4E13-B766-021CC8C0F5EF - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 9:46am | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Sweetgrass, I didn't take offence to anything you've posted :) Was just attempting to explain my perceptions on the matter :) BBJones, Unfortunately our family is in no financial shape to get into any battles with either the school system or the government/courts due to us being a 1 income family. I've got a degenerative disk disease and unemployable (other than doing a bit of computer consulting here and there) and not recieving any provincial disability due to their income caps. My son is in a great program this year at his new school and it's even better than what he had in his 1 on 1 situation when he went to George Jay. We're also involved with the Laurel Group and are presently waiting for the provincial subsidies that were just implemented last year so we can afford some extra supports/services. Things are definately not what they were last year. I'll still shoot you an email though. I don't want to become complacent because things are going not too bad atm and am more than interested in assisting others who've been in the same boat we have been. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 9:58am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Shaggy shaggy shaggy. I recieved 100% of my education PRIOR to working. How many times do i have to say it. Damn I work in a union environment, hence, i make more, have better job security, benefits and a pension. If you are going to critisize those of us whom are doing whatever it takes to best provide a compfortable lifestyle....."I FART in your general direction" - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:45am | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Ok, I don't have time to read this whole thread, but here's some points to think about... - Someone explain logically how a union, which is by definition supposed to speak for the people, is using the people as pawns in their battle with management/government. They are essentially using the people to further their own agenda. Does this not seem a little contradictory to anyone else? - Justify to me how the dude flipping burgers in the shitty White Spot on the ferry deserves $17/hour, but the dude flipping burgers in the shitty White Spot on Quadra/Mackenzie is only making $7? Some people working on the ferry deserve to get their wages cut. Everyone bitches about the cost of the ferry, but how are the fares going to go down when the average asshole serving the Triple-O mayo on the ferry is pulling down $125 a day. Fuck off. 3. And if you people spent five minutes doing some actual reading, and you will find out that the ferries, while partially privatized, are still under the authority of the provincial government. That means that with enough pressure, the government can fire the entire board of the BC Ferry Authority. All I know is that the only people being hurt here are the citizens of British Columbia, and specifically those that live on the smaller islands (Saltspring, Galiano, Mayne, etc.) How are these communities going to cope? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:00pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Spend 30 minutes and do some research. http://www.creativeresistance.ca/awareness-toc/awareness-bc-ferries.htm In my opinion, this site is a very balance, objective account of the BC Ferry Services situation. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:16pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | Fred - Actually pretty much all your points / questions have been addressed previously in this thread. Rather than spend MY time responding to you ('cause I'm at work and don't have the time), why don't YOU spend the 30 minutes or so to read it.... ;-) Then, if your questions aren't answered or your points not covered then ask 'em again.... - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:24pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Fair enough. I didn't read the whole thread. Just wanted to add my two cents. If my comment about spending 30 minutes reading came across as insulting, I apologize. But there are people on here that are making blantantly false allegations about the government, BC Ferry Services, and the union. I was addressing comments to those people. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:32pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | Alright Fred... you're off the hook... you don't have to read the entire thread.... - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:41pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Phew. I was worried about the potential for violence arising here... - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:48pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Interesting articles, Fred. There seems to be a common theme... - The current government is under extremely tight budgetary constraints (typically due to years of poor choices made by the previous government). - Cutbacks and/or reductions in service are inevitable for a responsible government - Union's cry out about saftey, service levels and maintaining work in the BC ferry industry. Good causes of course, but they don't seem to be paying attention to the fact that their expensive demands are making the problem worse. It's easy to point and cry foul. Coming up with solutions is the hard part. Coming up with economical solutions seems to be impossible since someone has to suffer, and no one wants to. Got any articles that show how unions are offering reductions in cost to the government to help maintain the ferry industry in BC? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:00pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Coming up with economical solutions seems to be impossible since someone has to suffer, and no one wants to. Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but if the ferries continue to be mismanaged the way they have been for the last 10+ years, the company will be out of business and all these people will be out of work, period. The ferry workers need to realize that within the next 5 years, over half of the current fleet is going to be retired. So even after the FastCats, we're going to need new Spirit class and Queen class vessels. Where is the money going to come for this? If they don't pull in the reigns on the unions wages, the money will come either from increased fares or increased taxes, because the government will be forced to bail them out. Either way, it's out of the taxpayer's pockets and everyone will STILL be crying foul about the big, bad Ferry Corp. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:27pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | That being said, the new BC Ferries president, David Hahns gave himself a huge pay raise, to a whopping $335,000. The previous president made $130-140,000, and I read that all the top managers have received increases in pay. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:32pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Sad... very sad. No one in this country needs to make that level of salary. No one. Even worse is when salaries like that are paid for in whole or in part by tax payers. Make me sick. The most rediculous argument for high salaries in the public sector I see, is them saying "well that is competitive compared to the top level whatevers in the private sector." Well guess what jackass, in the private sector you have a shitload more risks at the top level than you do in the public sector. In the private sector you don't get to blame someone else and get away with fucking up all day. You go to jail. Is it so hard for people in trust to be responsible?? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 1:37pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Damn. The more I read the more mad I get... *********** The B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union was angered by the order, because they had already negotiated a return to service with B.C. Ferries Corp. before the order was issued. When the province didn't rescind the order, the workers shut down the ferries. By late Wednesday B.C. Labour Relations Board had ordered the workers to return to their jobs. The order also bans pickets near the operations of B.C. Ferries. *********** Jackie Miller, president of the union, said service will resume if the province rescinds the cooling-off period. She says the government action was "heavy-handed intrusion" that undermines contract negotiations. "The only thing I ask in return is that the government stop interfering�get out of the way and allow for free collective bargaining," said Miller. The fleet of ferries transport more than 60,000 people and 23,000 vehicles a day between 48 ports of call along the B.C. coast. B.C. Ferries president David Hahn says the union has a responsibility to resume service and negotiations. "We've got to deliver something to the public. They need transportation. We've got to supply it. It's pretty simple," said Hahn. The ferries are key to moving goods around the province, and the strike will quickly start to affect the economy. Grocery stores and other merchants have been scrambling to lease barges to carry their cargo. The short-haul trucking industry says the strike is costing about $1 million a day. Greater Victoria's tourism industry says the shutdown is a disaster, as hotels report cancelled reservations. *********** So, they union got "angry" becuase of government actions, and in turn has responded with tunnel vision decisions. GET BACK TO FUCKING WORK YOU IDIOTS! - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 2:08pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | Oh man I'm just gonna keep this garbage coming as I find it... From the HOME PAGE of the Ferry Union... "I'm on your side And I will not vote for the drunk Gordon Campbell. Keep up the fight! I work for the transit industry, and we fought a long (3 month) strike a few years ago. It is obvious that this government (ha ha) has hired an American union buster, and it is going to take all your efforts and resolve to beat him and get an honourable contract. All the best for now and the future. Brother Brian Newman" Glad to see fellow union brothers care only about their union and take pot shots at government leaders like they were still in grade 3. What a rediculous article to post ON THEIR FUCKING HOME PAGE! See for yourself... http://www.bcfmwu.com/ - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 2:19pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | Geez BBJones... it must be nice to have a private sector job where you can post on LiveVic all day.... Thought you said you worked HARD! ;-) - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 2:31pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | I haven't had a day off in over a month, and will likely continue that way right up until Christmas. So yeah, I need to get my fun time in while I'm at work :) - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 2:42pm | ||
| Broccoli User Info... | Fuck the bridge, too expensive ugly, yaddayaddayadda. What we need is a skyway: A giant zip-chord going straight from schwartzbay to twatson. It'll be cheap, easy, and not an eye-sore. whaddayasay? gimmi 2 months, 1/4 million dollars, permission, and 10km of 2m steel cabel and all your transportation woes will be gone. Also, I had/have a union Job, It was/is pretty cool: double normal retail wadges + benifits, and the moron students were pleased as punch to pay the extra 40% for books already grossly overpriced by the publishers. The clientel was Way cute-er and happier than normal retail assholes too... or at least the god-damned sketchy ass junkies at the 7-11, who rip you off and spit in your face - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:26pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Actually the myth that the Liberals are fixing what was previously broken by the NDP and those before them is a farce. Liberal spending is higher than any of those before them. How they're keeping this wondrous balanced budget is by cutting social programs and health care subsidies along with anything else they deem suitable to be hacked at budget wise. Who does this hurt the most? Sure as hell isn't the unions, since they are handed health benefits better than most get. They don't need to be involved with the social support system either, since they are well above poverty level. The whole mess really comes down to mismanagement imho. Government mismanages their income, they impose cutbacks to many services (which are also grossly mismanaged) and the ball just continues to gather momentum until it hits the wall and we end up in our present state with *insert union here going on strike at the taxpayers expense*. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:32pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Shaggy, you cannot for one second try to convince me the NDP government is not directly responsible for the state of the BC Ferry Services. Other areas, maybe. But ferries? I got one word for you... FastCat. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:43pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | I'm not saying that prior governments aren't partially at fault for the present state. But the fact that the liberals tout this balanced budget when they themsleves are doing the same thing at the expense of social programs and health care as well as schools etc so they can keep their own spending up and in fact increase their own operating costs, is asinine at best. When dealing with budgetary problems you can't look at 1 aspect and lay blame. There are many ministries that are mismanaged. And therin lies the problem. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:49pm | ||
| METALNECK User Info... | Oh yeah and the ferry workers have said that no matter what there will be full service from dec 19 to dec28 for christmas. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 5:55pm | ||
| Fred the Dragon User Info... | Hey Shaggy, I work with kids with special needs. I know all too well how shitty the situation is. So much so, in fact, that I am leaving the province to find well paying work in my field. But just as you said that you can't look at 1 issue independantly from everything else, you also can't blame the goverment for every social woe in the province. Part of the reason why the Liberals are able to toute this balanced budget is because they got rid of money pits like the ferries. And I don't blame them. Let the capitalist machine put a spark under the ferries. The employees on board who actually serve a purpose will be fine (technicians, bridge crew, etc). The people working in the gift shop and cafeteria might have to worry a little though. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 6:11pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Hey BB Jones here's some tidbits of information for you courtesy of the normally hardcore right wing CH news. They did a wage comparison with the Washington State ferry system converting the $US to $Cdn and guess what? That's right the Yankees get paid more across the board than the BC workers even though they live in a country where the cost of living is WAY lower (especially if you drink, smoke or drive). Also David Hahn's previous employer went bankrupt thanks to his expertise. The guy is a professional union buster. Also Les Layne (TC political columnist) has pointed out that the main dispute is now between the union and the government and that the "cooling off" period has turned into a catastrophe; the union and the corp. had finally worked out an agreement to set the essential service levels right about the same time as the (30 year old Socred created) "cooling off" peiod was imposed. If you happened to be at Fort and Cook tonight about dinner time you saw HUNDREDS of people from every union you could name calling for a general strike! Talk about pouring gasoline on the fire! Fuck this "downsizing" bullshit, fuck the Liberals, and FUCK DAVID HAHN! Fire the cunt, now. Graham Bruce should hang his head in shame (then resign). But no Liberal would ever do that. I'm not a big union guy (I QUIT the Musicians' union because it's an American union) and most of our unions have their bad eggs and their faults but if you destroy them then ALL of us will take a huge hit in our standards of living, not just the union members. Blaming the union members for trying to save their jobs and benefits is disingenious at best, fascist at worst, and playing into the hands of the fucking Liberals for sure. P.S. Since you haven't had a day off in a month I guess you've been feeding this post from work. I guess THAT"S not dogfucking, is it? - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 9:41pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | It sure as hell is dogfucking, but since I'm the boss and I make sure what needs to be done gets done no matter what, no one will complain. Yeah I saw the hordes of people that had about 15 cops and 10 vehicles blocking off Fort street completely. And yeah I also saw the wage comparisons. As the prof said at the same time, overpriced salaries aren't usually found in the senior positions, it's the trickle down effect they have where juinior level salaries near double their private counterparts. And don't forget the overhead. I'm curious, did you catch whether or not those were gross or net wages (after union deductions/fees)? The thing that kept really pissing me off was the continued coverage on the losses by other people and their companies. Small comapines were sending staff home becuase they didn't have enough work since no ferries were running. Too bad they weren't in a union and the employer had to pay them regardless... yup, that would help now wouldn't it. So what if the government stepped in and fucked this situation up further than it needed to be. They need to deal with it like adults, not get pissed off and have a tantrum that has cost this province over what, 5 million dollars now? Not to mention the impact this will have on the economy for a while to come. Do you think the union really cares about that? Nope. All they care about obviously, is making sure they keep their high wages, comfy jobs, job security and all the rest of it. Too bad for them they are acting illegally, that leaves them open for a series of lawsuits once this mess clears up. And yeah, the liberals suck ass, so did the NDP. Not much is going to change the way things were going so I'm all for throwing some wrenches into the system to see what happens. The status quo has been ruining the economy for years, do you really think it will get worse? Maybe... maybe not. All I know is the way unions operate these days does NOT help anything. Saying that if unions go away that we'll all fall into some type of depression or something is a bit stupid. There are more than enough responsible business people out there that are willing to take on the challenge to make a company successful. And yeah, you won't see minimum wage at $20/hr. Oh no, boo hoo. More people might have to actually work hard for a living or get fired for being lame. Welcome to reality... - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:04pm | ||
| kittykat666 User Info... | i just fukkin' hat being stuck on the damn island.... MONOPOLY! - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:16pm | ||
| D�ds anger User Info... | Let's see here... Dec. 11 ... High business with high travel... People all going to see achother before christmas... People taking vacations... Huge need for transportation that should be Govt. controlled.. A promise to have the transport up for a day before christmas, and how nice of them too.. ---- All I see is a rather convenient time to NEED to strike, They know right now that if they strike they can screw us all over, hence be dealt with ASAP, hence be given whatever they want at the expence of everyone else who pays taxes around here. I don't know the situation there, but I do know this, they are assholes for it, as if this wasn't planned to happen now purely to screw the average person so they will get what they want. Whats wrong? November or January not acceptable for striking? I guess it's just no fun unless you shaft everyone when they need you the most. Union Abuse I say. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:20pm | ||
| micoll User Info... | NO, its a convenient time for the company to MAKE them strike. - Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:16pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Funny you should mention the number of cops. I played a show last weekend and there were as many cops there as there were at the rally tonight, perhaps more. As for your screed against the union having the audacity to worry only about protecting the worker's' jobs and not worrying about everybody else I can only say, DUH, that's their fucking job. And the detail about the union fees etc. regarding the Washington ferries is nit picking pure and simple. You think that the union fees in the USA are going to be more than in Canada? I don't think so. And the overpaid salaries aren't found at the higher positions??? Give your head a shake; our pal David Hahn has given HIMSELF a salary that is at least DOUBLE that of his predecessor. Also to say that the union is acting "illegally" is complete bullshit; the govt. would outlaw unions, strikes and even poverty if they could get away with it. This has nothing whatsoever to do with law as justice, only with law as a tool to force people to do an essential job for a wage that the powers that be dictate is sufficient no matter what anyone else thinks. Your entire post tells me that you're a selfish fuck who doesn't care about anybody else's livelihood as long as you can have your fun. Well I'm my own boss too and I can see the future of this province and it's looking more and more like us becoming a variation of pre-Castro Cuba; a banana republic run largely by US interests where nobody has job security unless they suck cock to the powers that be and the rest of us can go to hell. I can guess whose side you'll be on. Me, I'm going to buy a gun, just in case there's any US soldiers cruising my neighborhood in the future. As for you, well, open wide. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:33am | ||
| Knoblin User Info... | Dont be jealous of peoples wages. We have to get past how much someone supposedly deserves and get to a place where its commonly accepted that we all deserve alot more. Theyre having their wages cut, for gods sake! No need. Who fucking cares if the corporation posts a profit. The fucking boat should be free anyway. Fucking privateers are pulling the wool over our eyes and trying to fleece the workers. Again. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:28am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | Maybe I dont understand the value of a dollar, but for Fred the Dragon to say this.... "Everyone bitches about the cost of the ferry, but how are the fares going to go down when the average asshole serving the Triple-O mayo on the ferry is pulling down $125 a day. Fuck off." Lets see. 125 a day, times 5 days a week, times 4 weeks a month, times 12 month. That is 30,000$ a year. Fred my friend. if you consider 30,000 a year being over paid for any job, which requires to do anything, i too laugh at you. People, these ferry workers arent making big $$$$. Sure they are making a living, and the highest paid "worker", the ships officers are only making about 60,000$ a year. But if you people are going to critisize a person making 17$ an hour, you obviously have one of two things. 1) A very low paying job 2) Fuck all ability, motivation, or dedication for self improvement. 17$ an hour is NOT alot of money. It is a living. ANY FUCKING JOB is worth that. Hey Fred, instead of using your logic the way you are , reverse it, and it will make much more since. A lot of this talk is ... " Why should Mcdonalds make 7 $ an hour and BC Ferries make 17$ an hour, doing same job." That makes me laugh. BBJones said ......"Sad... very sad. No one in this country needs to make that level of salary. No one. Even worse is when salaries like that are paid for in whole or in part by tax payers." You couldnt have said it better! Thats the point I am trying to get across. These people arent fighting over big $$$$, they are fighting over their living. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 9:19am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | hey Pierce, I love ya bro, but 17 bucks per hour is pretty drastic comparatively man. 17 bucks an hour IS a lot of money bro, whether you think so or not. If I made that much, or anything at all near that much, I'd be happy as hell forever. May even be able to buy my own patch cords. Most "normal" shit jobs around here start at 8 or 9 buck an hour. Tons of people are even able to get by on it too. 17 to start is unbelievable for unskilled lacky work man, no matter how you look at it. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 9:42am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | $17/hr. is nowhere near enough money to do anything but keep one person's body and soul together. If you add a wife and/or kid, a mortgage, a car etc. it is nowhere near enough to do much more than scrape out a bare existance. And these jobs are hardly the kind of jobs that most people would aspire to. They are boring jobs that don't have much room for self-improvement and the fact that these jobs are on marine vessels adds a lot of minor hassles (getting stuck on the wrong side in bad weather, rough seas making the crew seasick etc.). Job envy is kind of pathetic but you can bet the Liberals love it; divide and conquor. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:43am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | job envy nothing man. money envy. i hardly know anyone who makes 17 bucks an hour, must be nice to expect that. if you do, more power to you, but most people do not make that kind of dough. maybe you've been out of the market too long, but the vast majority of jobs pay considerably less than that. way less. i don't make bad money where i work, but it sure isn't 17 an hour that's for sure. and yeah, most people i know have to work to make ends meet. anything more than that is a bonus that people just don't usually get. shit, I'd take a job at the ferries any day. inconvenience? that's nothing for the lifestyle you'd be able to lead making upwards of 17 bones an hour. it's a lot of money man, any way you look at it. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:53am | ||
| Daryl Armour User Info... | agreed - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:08pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | I know drywallers who make $17 hr. Its not that much really. Dont forget, you also fall into a drastically different tax bracket. You think they rape and pillage your min wage job? Ive known people to turn down raises that jumped them up a tax bracket, they would have earned more per hor but would have netted less after taxes. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:14pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | true, i've heard of dudes doing that before. from my standpoint though, it's the differance between making 8 bucks an hour more than i get now or 10 bucks an hour more. i wish i wasn't so severley retarded so i could get a real job. stuffing envelopes for 6 bucks an hour part time doesn't pay for my porn "interest". maybe i could get on at the ferries? i can stand there all day and moan for 20 an hour! okay, i probably can't, but i could learn! okay, no I couldn't.... - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:17pm | ||
| Daryl Armour User Info... | you can if you put your mind to it! - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:27pm | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | Hmmm.. Ive known a few ferry workers who werent exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, Im sure Ross you could put your expertise to work douching out the toilets or chasing the potheads out of the handicapped bathroom... :D - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:29pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | yes I've always been in awe of a ferry yardworkers' incredible skills and physical/mental prowess at doing a fine, fine job of...uhhh....what was it they do again? Anyway, I want THAT job man! - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:30pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | $17/hr. is nowhere near enough money to do anything but keep one person's body and soul together. If you add a wife and/or kid, a mortgage, a car etc. it is nowhere near enough to do much more than scrape out a bare existance. And these jobs are hardly the kind of jobs that most people would aspire to. They are boring jobs that don't have much room for self-improvement and the fact that these jobs are on marine vessels adds a lot of minor hassles (getting stuck on the wrong side in bad weather, rough seas making the crew seasick etc.). Job envy is kind of pathetic but you can bet the Liberals love it; divide and conquor. You are right, $17/hr is not enough to raise a family, a new car, a mortgage etc. Who the fuck said it should be? Do you really think you are entitled to have an entry level job that does not require a university degree and be able to have all that? Ever heard of multiple income families? You know, the ones where BOTH parents work? Usually single income families DO NOT have a new car, kids and a mortgage. Neither should they expect it. $17/hr for a single adult is TONS of fucking money. That is almost $35,000 per fucking year man! No it's not a lot for a long term career, but it sure as hell is a lot for an 18 year old dipshit out of high school. And it is plenty for half of a dual income family. If both parents have decent jobs, they are easily grossing over $70,000 per year. That ain't enough for ya? Well boo hoo that you can't afford that new SUV. Many people get buy just fine by themselves with $20-$25K /year. No they don't own a new car, no they usually don't have a $200K mortgage on a house in Oak Bay. But they sure as hell know how to live by working hard for their money. And they sure as hell get pissed off hearing union workers moan about their relatively insignificant issues. People expect too fucking much for nothing. Go out and make it happen yourself without relying on the rest of society to hand it to you. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 1:46pm | ||
| SweetGrass User Info... | $30.000 a year is a lot higher than the starting wage of teachers. They have a union too. Teachers are kinda important in the grand scheme of things! $17.00/hr is a lot of money.!!! - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 2:57pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | 18 year old dipshit? man, i was trying to get my dream job at the ferries until you told me that's who the jobs are for! shitty.... - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 3:37pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | You lowered salary people should fully support the ferry workers(union). They are people who have established employment and career opportunities to people like you, who dont need a college education to make good money. What is wrong with that? The fact that none of you are putting in the work needed (filling out an application) to get the jobs, doesnt give you the right to critisize those fighting for higher pay. BBjones, i dont know about you, and maybe i am in a fazed reality...but.. I NEED my house, NEED my car, and NEED my future taken care of. I fully understand that 25 k year is enough for a living, however, it isnt enough to live compfortably. Quite honestly, i dont have one single friend that makes 17 $ or less, and maybe thats why i ahve such a different attitude and opinion. 17$ an hour is not ALOTof money. It is a living....and thats what BC Ferries wants. A living. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 4:43pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | well if you're a deteriorating sack of dusty bones like zippgunn then $17 an hour isn't nearly enough to have your yearly hip replacements and buy depends every two days. on top of all that, think of all the ear plugs his household must go through by having to listen to him ramble on about nothing. union workers are all fags. no exceptions. that includes that bullshitter that calls himself fierce or pierce or whatever. yeah, fierce all right. fiercely in the wrong. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 4:46pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Boy I wish I was a genius like BB Jones. He found himself a house in Oak Bay for $200,000! Look clowns, I make $25/hr (when I work) and my wife works 3 different jobs, yet we live in a plaster box in Colwood (value aprox. $200,000). I make so much dough that I haven't been able to afford a car for myself for 2 years now, and we have to count our dimes and nickles to afford a pizza once every 2 weeks or so. And i love all of your math skills; sure $17/hr is not bad but that's BEFORE TAXES which will syphon off at least $5,000 even if you have kids. The fact that my wife and I both work non-stop (and at different hours) means that we spend zero time together (we see each other awake for aprox. 6 hrs/week) which leads to petty disagreements etc. and in a lot of families to divorce and other problems that strain the social safety net in our province, all of which is paid for by taxpayers. My family hasn't had a holiday now in 11 years! We're over $100,000 in debt and yet, I CONSIDER MYSELF LUCKY. After all I own my home (actually the bank does but I like to live in a fantasy world) and do a job I love where I'm my own boss. The downside is, of course, that I have no pension plan or retirement saving at all and when I hit 65 (IF I hit 65) I will probably be living far below the poverty line. Of course why should assholes like you care about me, I'm a greedy rockstar and you're all hard working salts of the earth. Fuck all of you. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 4:51pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | "all union workers are fags" Haha. Umm ok - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 4:53pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Better not to even relpy to idjuts that we know are trolls Pierce. It just gives em the attention they don't get at home from their mommy. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:23pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | Hey Pierce, if you and your crew all make at least 17 bucks or whatever, then you have no chance of understanding what the rest of the world have to live like brutha! You're very, very fortunate to be able to have the lifestyle you do. That's cool as hell, I wish I was rich too. Why you keep on bitching about MY patch cord then holmes? Hee hee hoo.... PS - 17 bucks an hour isn't just a living dude. It's waaay more than that, especially for dudes like us who have no house or kids or whatever. Count yourself lucky bro. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:24pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | yes us idjuts don't like it when you respond. ignore us and we will go away. our mommies all abandoned us like shaggy's masculinity abandoned him in his early teen years and never came back. zippgunt, you decided your way of making a living there, old pseudo-recording guy. if you are 100 grand in debt and haven't had a vacation in 11 years and see your wife for an hour a day, maybe you should go and get a union job instead of recording tired punk bands. you make $35 an hour. shouldn't you be raking in some nice dough? your wife is working three jobs to support your fantasy. she should divorce you. - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 5:27pm | ||
| kittykat666 User Info... | unions really are great, and for all of you dissin' them, if you had a union job makin' hella cash.... would you give a fuck right now about how much the ferry staff makes... my guess NO!! - Fri, 12 Dec 2003 6:32pm | ||
| johnnybrotten User Info... | Fuck da unions an fire all their lazy asses...job don't require rocket science degrees. - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:29am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | easy there Newton....lol - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:43am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Gee I'm beginning to like this fuckface dude, he just gave me a $10/hr raise! And yeah, I would be raking in some nice dough but you see, I had to actually PAY for all this gear which is one reason why I'm so much in debt. Indeed why don't I just go out and get a nice union job, in fact, why don't all those stupid homeless people go out and get union jobs. We could fire all the ferry workers and replace them with folks from the Open Door and save a bag of cash. After all junkies and retards can still run a vacuum cleaner or cash register. Well the reason I haven't gone out and gotten a straight job is simple; my body is so fucked up that it simply won't handle the stresses of normal shit-job activity. Most other people would go out and get a handicapped pension (which i could get in a heartbeat) but I'm such an egotistical asshole I decided I would rather do something positive and non-parasitic that played to my strengths and gave back something to my community (which in my case is the local music scene) while at the same time earning a living. And I think I've done rather well despite the pathetic mewlings of my naysayers who complain that I don't know the difference between black metal and death metal. As for being old, well it happens to the best of us and I can't wait to see how hip all you guys are when you're my age. Male pattern baldness looks so gay in a metal band. - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:10am | ||
| johnnybrotten User Info... | lol - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:23am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | lol..hear hear! - Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:59am | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | get a job at the ferries like me. we do nothing at all! your handicap (which is mostly your ear for frequencies i'm sure) would not be an issue when you can sit on your bloated ass with me at the loading bridge which is half disconnected from the ferry. we can chug beer and laugh at minivans while they plunge into the ocean. i gave you a raise because it sounds like you desperately need one. with that extra $10 an hour you can get some rogain. - Sun, 14 Dec 2003 1:09pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | You are no longer amusing, goodbye. P.S. perfect handle. - Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:07am | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | "Job envy is kind of pathetic but you can bet the Liberals love it; divide and conquor" Zippgun hit the nail on the head there kids. We are totally missing what is really going on here. I dont see ANYONE on this board that has either the power or money to make changes, have their voice truely heard or call any shots at all in this country. I say whether you are making $8/hr or $17/hr or $25/hr for that matter we are still the little people always bickering amongst ourselves over leftovers while the truely rich and powerful laugh, herd us where they want and get richer. Fuckin sad that we are so easily shucked..... - Mon, 15 Dec 2003 8:58am | ||
| BBJones User Info... | That disparity grows each year. Currently, the 225 richest individuals in the world, have more money than over 40% of the world's poorest population combined. That's close to 3 BILLION people. Also, the top 3 richest people in the world, together have more money than about 75 of the poorest countries combined. Of course we as individuals can do little except scream and yell and vote. But, it is going to take someone at some point to begin radical change. Or, we will simply have to wait and hope things turn around over time. Perhaps a major natural critical issue will wake some people up, but not likely. Most economists agree that "things will be ok in the future" because they believe in the adaptability of humankind. But, they continue to skew statistics in their favour, and ignore real issues that eventually will affect us all... and of course, then it will be too late. So in the meantime... fuck the unions and piss on Campbell. - Mon, 15 Dec 2003 9:12am | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | REVOLUTION! Lets write letters of disapproval! - Mon, 15 Dec 2003 9:41am | ||
| ender User Info... | oi!!! you can't fuck the unions!! generic contracts with little or no incentives is just communism!! but without some sort of union(protection) your employer could fire your ass cause he doesn't think you should like punk music!! there's gotta be ,and should be,, a happy medium here!! human nature dictates that there never will be though!! and to the einsteins who said boofucking hoo to the union members who didn't want to take a wage cut,,,,,,,,,it happens in the private sector all the time??? all these rich fucking CEO's at all these big company's and business's are standing up and cheering with mucho gusto when dumbfucks like you speak up and cut thier own throats!! sure it happens in the private sector all the time(cause they don't have a union) but come on stupid people!!!! does that make it right??? I'd be the first to admit that a lot of the big unions are asking for ridiculous things(demanding actually) but not cause I'm concerned about some fatass CEO being out a few bucks!! what those guys view as everyday is whats really ridiculous!! I could go on and on!! merry xmas - Tue, 16 Dec 2003 9:28pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | Felt it made sense about the recent BC Ferries strike... DrunkTank-Boats ========= ===== What happened, to our democracy Our country is goin' broke, We must stop all the boats Until we get on our feet Stop the flow from comin' in, It's not late to begin Chorus: The people, should rule this land Instead we're just in the the palm, of some fat fucks hand Unemployment, man what a joke It's just a scam to keep you down and out and fuckin' broke Why can't there be a job for me Opportunity never knocks I get kicked in the rocks Ya must be a visible minority For us to hire you It's not racist it's the truth - Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:07pm | ||
| Masturbating The War God User Info... | Currently I am working for Canada Post this Christmas season, which is a Union. The wage really is ridiculous, and it's not that tough of a job. Someone said that it's not what you know, it's who, and for Canada Post that statement couldn't be more correct. Every year I work there(this year is #5) I bust my fucking ass off to get some recognition to hopefully get a term position offered to me. I work along side full time workers who occomplish half of what I do, most of the while bitching about something at work. It really fucking pisses me off, these people are protected by a union and have to do something pretty fucking horrible to get canned. I am generalizing I know, and there are lots of great workers too, it's just insane that people bitch when they have so much. As for the ferry strike, I think it's a little overboard, of course no one wants to have a wage cut, or shifts, but to punish those that have aboslutely nothing to do with it in the first place is insane. I also would love to give a warm 'Fuck You' to the passengers who wouldn't let other passengers get off their ferry when it docked, because they had service. Those people lived on a small island, they need it more than us, we can get to a fucking store if we need too. What on earth did you think that would accomplish?! I guess what I am saying is that unions did have their place, but there needs to be more balance in today's work place. - Thu, 18 Dec 2003 9:56am | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | "Male pattern baldness looks so gay in a metal band" Cmon! Metal Church? The Scorpions? Gene Simmons? :D - Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:17am | ||
| Chryst_al_Mighty User Info... | Mike, what about mr. Devin Townsend ? http://www.strappingyounglad.com/SYL/bio/bio_devin.htm - Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:24am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Fags! Turd burglars all! - Thu, 18 Dec 2003 1:26pm | ||
| el fuckface-o User Info... | they may be fags and/or turd burglars but at least they get paid more than your non-union wage of $25 an hour, which in a day would equal about $25 minus gst. i have some empties you can put towards your $100,000 debt. i'll leave them by the mustard seed and you can grab them tomorrow when you go to pick up your huge sack of christmas rice. - Thu, 18 Dec 2003 6:57pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | I love the level of knowledge of those who do work for no money thinking that it is tragic (sarcasm theirs, not mine) that someone making $70K/yr in a dual income family should be happy with their lot, even if they can't get a new SUV or a $200K mortgage in Oak Bay. Yeah, I am old crusty fuck compared to most of you, and you know, unless you are clearing over $100K in this town, you can't afford a mortgage in any part of this burg. $200K in Oak Bay? Fuck, try Esquimalt where the average house costs $250K. A cheap hovel in this town with more than two bedrooms is $180K, and that is a hole. It is class warfare. Those who think anyone making $17/hr should be happy are either extremely young themselves or have no motivation in life. I worked my ass off to do what I do for a living, and took on some heavy student loans to do it, I make good money, but when you factor two kids into the equation plus the fact that there is no job security in any sector anymore, and you don't want your kids squeegeeing cars to buy their KD when they grow up. Fuck, this governemnt has you right where they want you, believing we should be grateful just to have a job. Where the fuck did the conscience of this nation go? Where we believed it to be the right of every citizen to have health, education and opportunity? Oh, right, we all have the right to bend over and take it, and for that we should be eternally grateful. - Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:59am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | stop whining. why are you always whining? stop this infernal whining! All i hear is whining! DAM YOU QUIT WHINING GEEZZ!!! - Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:54am | ||
| Masturbating The War God User Info... | Hmmm, I am currently making 10$ and hour, I don't have children, but I do have rent, bills, new car payments, pets, and I still manage to hold on to spending money and saving money. If I was working a 20$/hr job I can just imagine what I could do with that paycheck. To say that people making 17$ and actually appreciating it are either young or too stupid to know what is going on is ridiculous. What about people who make a lot less, which is most of us, can you imagine how great it would be to more than double your fucking wage?! No one makes you buy that new SUV or new house in Oak Bay but yourself, people need to learn to manage their money better. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 8:21am | ||
| Pierce User Info... | You have to be kidding! - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:19am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | why? - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:23am | ||
| Masturbating The War God User Info... | I'm not kidding. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:46am | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | Like a dog chasing something never thrown... everyone here is bickerin' over mere chump change (in the big scheme of things)... when the people with the real action (and $... and power) are laughing at us chumps. Sad. Free your mind and your ass will follow.... $10 an hour stinks... when you got $25K in student loans. I do NOT appologise for makin', relatively speaking, good $. If you're happy with your "lot" in life so be it; just don't try draggin' me down with you.... - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:47am | ||
| Masturbating The War God User Info... | I guess I was brought up to believe money isn't everything. I don't have a student loan to pay back, why? Because I don't know what I want to do with myself, so why, FOR ME, waste my hard earned money only to more than likely not have a job when I am finished my course. A lot of people who are paying for school aren't getting a job when they are done, be it trades or computers or whatever. The popuation is growing and the jobs and dwindling. Of course $10 is sad and pitiful in the eyes of the upper middle class and more well off people. But I think the issue should be, does all your money, whatver the amount it is, make you happy? I don't plan on staying in this job forever, but for now, it's working, and there is a great chance for me to move up in my job and make more money. Instantanious huge money jobs are a dream or life time chance. My boss is a good example that no amount of money will be enough. Cue the tired cliche of starving people around the world... As for saving for the future, this year I am starting rrsp's, and be it only 100$ a month, it's better than nothing. Money doesn't rule my life and I feel sorry for people's it does. Oh, I am not getting down on people who do make good money, I wouldn't expect you to appologize. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:26pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian User Info... | "I guess I was brought up to believe money isn't everything." Me too; I don't think anyone here says it is either. God knows I'm ain't much of a 'consumer'. I'm totally down with Adbusteresque anti consumerist movements like "Buy Nothing Day" and other models of living like "Radical Simplicity". But, unfortunately, I still gotta somehow pay my rent, bills, food, and transportation etc. I'm sorry if that makes me "upper middle class".... LOL!! Me - "upper middle class" - that's funny shit!!!! Obviously you don't think $ is totally irrelevent, or you wouldn't be puttin' it in RRSP's. For what it's worth though, I agree with your earlier statement that some people (in your case Postal workers) whine too much when they don't have it THAT bad... true true.... - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:49pm | ||
| Masturbating The War God User Info... | Now now, I didn't say YOU were, I said that in regards to the upper middle class my wage is measly. Money isn't everything yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. I am putting money into rrsp's because I honastly have no idea where I will be in 40 years when retirment comes along, and as much as I love to work, I don't want to be working in Tim Hortons when I'm 65. On a sad note, last night was my lastnight this year making $20+ an hour at the post office, fuck that's sick. Oh well, maybe this year I'll make a term....that's as funny to me as being middle class to you ;) - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 1:39pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | The reason why i said you were kidding is this............ I make about 35$ an hour, and i would LOVE to have an SUV or a house! RIght now i drive a crappy Hyundai, and i pay someone elses mortage in the form of RENT, and i too live paycheck to paycheck. How did i get this high paying job?? A VERY EXPENSIVE EDUCATION THAT I AM PAYING BACK. student loans are a bitch. If you have been able to thrive and have a compfortable lifestyle on 10$ an hour then i truely give you my "Kudos", as i my friend, am living pay check to paycheck! So back to the ferries people, ..... i would be severly pissed off if my employer took 5$ an hour away from me. I would strike till the cows came home, yet i will still be making 30$ an hour. You made my point clearly.....You have adapted to your 10 an hour, as i have adapted to my 35$ an hour, if ANYONE came to you and skimmed off even 1.50$ of your hourly wage you would be pissed. I too will not apologise for my "high" (according to some) paying job, and i would really wish that those of you in "lower" paying jobs, would fight for higher wages rather than have the "Well at least you have a job" mentality. ANy friggin job is worth more than 10$ an hour. ANYONES TIME IS WORTH MORE THAN THAT. My opinion. And especially since Ross Bay keeps stealing my gear, i have had to resort to food stamps. MONEY DOES RULE MY LIFE. Thats why i work. I have the very basics in life, a home, an education, a car, music gear. I need $$$$ to support all that. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 1:51pm | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | shaddap and buy me a beer or 6..... - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 2:11pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | someone's lost touch with the real world here.....hehe - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 2:21pm | ||
| Pierce User Info... | I do fully understand your opinions, however, i fully supported the ferry people, thats what this thread was about. Also, making a higher salary, of course, places you into the "I am paying taxes out of my ass" bracket. On my last years income tax i paid 21,000$. That works out to 10.97$ an hour i pay in taxes. Which brings me to 24$ an hour. Of course Union fees are not cheap, as well as the constant friggin pressure to donate to UNITED WAY...Which brings it to 21$ an hour. Just to bring a bit of light on what happens when your income exceeds a certain amount. Also, i have to pay into EI, which i will never use, which brings my wage down to 20$ an hour. (this figures are approx) Plus, whenever you make this money, you have had to gain an education prior(25,000$), which runs about 350$ a month or 2.25$ an hour. So now my hourly wage, or take home pay is 17.75$ an hour. On top of this i have to pay into medical, dental, and all those other quirks, which are not free, but rather subsidized, to the benfit of employer and employee, which is about 1.09$ an hour, which now brings me to say 16.75$ an hour. Now here is where the point is made........If i was to take a 5$ an hour pay-cut, i would still be in the "HOLY FUCKIN TAXES BRACKET" which means, that 5$ an hour, or at least the majority of it, is actually taken off my take home pay. SO that would bring me from 16.75$ an hour to 14$ an hour take home. So,,a person making 30$ an hour is taking home 14$ an hour. A person whom makes 10$ an hour is taking home, i would estimate, 7.25$ an hour after they get their taxes complete. So although my starting salary is approx 3 times larger, that starting wage DOES not at all reflect my actual income, as with the Ferry workers. The point i am trying to make is this.......17$ an hour is NOT a lot of money. And it is in NO way a suitable income to gain a HOME in Oak Bay or that Buick Rendevous (SUV). SO please realise that us "higher" paid people are not in any positions to have a home, vehicle, family etc, thingswhich i would say are a necessity in this life. I struggle too, and if they wereto take ANY money from me i would be pissed. I am happy with my income, but please, dont insinuate that that kind of income gives you the toys. It doesnt. It gives you a compfortable lifestyle. If i was to get my GF pregnant, i would be selling a lot of my gear PRONTO, before Ross B Ay steals it all. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 2:40pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | who's trying to take your money away from you man? are you being shook down by the man again? - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 3:04pm | ||
| Chryst_al_Mighty User Info... | "If i was to get my GF pregnant, i would be selling a lot of my gear PRONTO, before Ross B Ay steals it all." - No need man, abortions are free and babys go for top dollar on the black market. - Sat, 20 Dec 2003 3:54pm | ||
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