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FREE live recording session - acoustic/classical performers required immediately!
| Message Board > General Chitchat > FREE live recording session - acoustic/classical performers required immediately! |
| Timo User Info... | TIME : Sunday October 15th, 13:00 to no later than 16:30 LOCATION : Uvic, MacLaurin building wing B recital rooms 037 and 016 and studio room 002 MY OBJECTIVE : Utilize four different stereo miking techniques (Coincident Cardioids, Spaced Omni Pair, ORTF Near Coincident Pair, Baffled Omni Pair) to capture your live performance and analyze each recording for sound quality and stereo image due to amplitude, timing, and spectral cues. I'm in Electrical Engineering with a Recording/Computer Music program option, and I get marked on this for my MUS 306 class. YOUR OBJECTIVE : Have your performance recorded for free with expensive microphones! (that are utilized properly) I need at least two musicians (a small group or ensemble would also work well) to perform a short piece (ideally under three minutes) at least four times - you don't need to be professional musicians, but a moderate level of ability would be nice. I will record you live in the acoustic space using four different stereo microphone techniques; we will then listen to the recordings with sound quality in mind, and I can give each performer a copy of the cd containing the recorded tracks. I should mention that this is a pure acoustic live recording, meaning that all instruments must be played together as a performance that will be stereo miked with natural room reverb (the same way that orchestras in concert halls are recorded). There will be no multitracking and no pro-tools editing, however professional and very natural sounding results are attainable - stereo miking applications with high quality equipment and a DAT recorder are very well suited for capturing live sound in an ambient space. Also, if there is no cd copier available in the studio room we can instead listen to the finished recordings and burn the disks at my home studio in Gorden Head, however I'm almost certain that we can do this in the studio/equipment room I have booked at UVic. If you are interested please contact me ASAP, and if you are interested but unavailable at this time (or Sunday has passed) please post here anyway in case I don't find anyone and I have to reschedule. CONTACT ME: 882-0793 [email protected] (if you e-mail me please provide a phone number and a brief note or description of instruments/style) Cheers! Timo - Fri, 13 Oct 2006 9:05pm Edited: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 9:05pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | I'm very interested to know the results of such an experiment. I've used the methods you mention and I've done many X-Y, A-B, Mid-Side and in particualr Baffled Omni recordings. I own an original Jecklin OSS disc (regrettably a little bit damaged right now) I have also built two Binaural recording rigs. I wouldn't mind perhaps witnessing the layout. Not sure if other musicians will show up, but I might be able to dig up something to record which can provide consistent results. Send me an email tomorrow and we can discuss. [email protected] . . - Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:24pm Edited: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:13am | ||
| Mi*coll* User Info... | this does sound really cool. your program sounds awesome. unfortunately i can't help you, really -- i play in a rock and roll band that uses a PA. however, i am really interested to hear what you have to say about the results. i have heard people who swear by the blumlein technique (with two fig 8 mics at 90 degs to one another, one above the other). it is supposedly produces very natural sounding results, although it doesn't reproduce time-differentials between the signals like, say, a spaced omni pair. unfortunately i have never tried it as i only have cardiod mics at the moment. i have only used x-y and spaced pair techniques. how did you choose these four techniques? what mics are you going to use? regards, mike - Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:32pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | The Blumlien experience is pretty remarkable especially considering the time period! It provides a wonderful and accurate sound-stage. Keep in mind, a Blumlein-Array means multiple blumlein pairs!` http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Blumlein The Mid-Side technique also involves a Fig-8 with a mono cardioid in between. I'm Quite pleased with the results of `this pattern. Some control is available afterward which is useful eh? I'll see you tomorrow Timo! Also, as far as time/freq/direction goes, if you use a baffled and matched pair of good mics (or a binaural pair) you get the best of all three stereo queues. Binarual in particular, when you listen to it will scare the bujeezus out of you in its accuracy. - Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:28am Edited: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:31am | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | Thanks again Timo. Awesome day; Glad you're recordings came out nice. I gave mine a brief listen as well and all is good. I haven't listened to the close-up time period as yet. As you may have noticed, my recordings never actually Stopped (because of the luxury of hard disks and 40GB of available space) so I will need to find and cutout the various takes. I had a small bit of piano playing that I was interested in keeping as well. I'll make sure to catch up with you can give you the results for your own interest. I'll get you to pass a copy along to the musicians when I do, since thats only fair to them. Mi*Coll*, the mics we ended up using were: Timo's Experiments: 2 X Neumann KM184 (For the X-Y coincident and near-coincident) 2 X AKG C414 EB (Spaced Omni pair) 1 X Crown SASS (Stereo boundary microhpne) - What a 'little' beauty! (Uvic doesn't fuck around when it comes to available microphones eh?) Mine: 2 X C414 in Fig-8 for Blumlein pattern (Thanks to Henderson for the loan) 1 X Behinger B-2 Pro (Fig-8) + 1 X Behringer C-2: Mid-Side I left all my mics in position, while Timo performed the bulk of his experiment which involved the different patterns and the different musician placing. Thanks again, Timo. Talk to you over the next week or so. - Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:19pm | ||
| Timo User Info... | That very last close miking we did has reasonable isolation on each instrument, and since they are each panned to a channel amplitude wise I was thinking of maybe trying to pan them closer toward the center and mix the tracks with your Bleumlein pattern recording if it has decent reverb. I'm very fond of the performance and the clarity is excellent, but that take is just too dry(I could always use digital reverb, but the reverb in the room is better). If I did it again I would change the image spacing on some of the other far miked recordings as I may have gone overkill on the stereo and the instruments sound very seperated from one another. I'm not sure if any editing can be used to adjust the spread slighty because most of the tracks have stereo time cues incoded in them, and there would be phase cancellations if the left and right mic tracks were made to overlap slightly (and also a narrowing of the entire stereo space, not just the instrument locations). Overall, however, I believe that the quality of sound is very good and the recording distances were chosen well. Thank you for coming out, it was good to have someone with experience to work alongside. Also, I will give you copies of the recordings. Cheers - Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:18am | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | You mentioned it being possible to mix in the very isolated one with my mics which never changed position, that would probably sound awesome, and since both recording devices are purely digital there shouldn't be any timing bullshit or such. Secondly, I still haven't had time this week to decode all the Mid-Side stuff. When the musicians tightened in at the end, I took the time to reposition that method a little just to make the orientation was right. We *might* find that using the M-S one as the ambient one will have the advantage of being able to vary the MID (Cardioid) to further adjust the perceived width of the space. Of course it might also provide one too many mixing decisions for a project which was designed to be as two-mic stereo as possible.... No harm in experimenting after the fact though. Might have to be a new name for that combo: Mid-DIN-Side Array. Luckily our mic layouts where not so far away from each other that funky phase issues will be a big problem. We both need to keep in mind however, that even though phase canceling and heavy comb filtering are the bane of the stereo recording process, these phenomena are something that happens continuously to sound hitting our own ears. In some cases, subtle phase cancellation is a sound queue to our brains. I'm pissed at myself for having missed one thing while there. I should have brought some kind of frequency sweep and amplifier to capture an impulse image of the room. Rather than using generic digital reverb devices, I tend to pprefer adding small amounts of the actual room. Not sure if you've every used Acoustic Mirror or any of those. . . Maybe next time. - Wed, 18 Oct 2006 1:05pm Edited: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 1:11pm | ||
| Tyler User Info... | I'm totally in this class. My own project ended up with a lot of clipping due to improper levels...gah.. not enough of a buffer between the apparent peaking and clipping point. - Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:07am | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | Ya, both the Panasonic DAT and the CD-writer in that little rack probably have a pretty fine point between where it SAYS it will clip and where it actually blows over. They need to warn you sooner. When in doubt you have no choice but to leave lots of headroom and make the musicians play realistically during soundcheck. Lastly, make sure the distortion isn't happening at the inputs. Recently I've been using 24bit (@44.1 mind you) in order to be able to leave some extra room, but at the same time still capture more than 16bits. This isn't an option on standard DAT or CDR of course. If I where purchasing for UVic, I would slowly start to replace those machines with these: http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=8&P_ID=8415&PT_ID=297 . . - Fri, 20 Oct 2006 1:04pm Edited: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 1:06pm | ||
| Timo User Info... | Yeah, the safest thing to do with that set up is to record well below the zero db mark on the CD burner if the track has significant dynamic variations. I want to multi track record in that room, however my laptop has proved to be useless at capturing audio even after being freshly formatted. I do have an M-audio Delta66 card on my PC, but that's not the most mobile thing in the world. While the mics available to us are excellent, the mobile recording medium could defenitely be improved. - Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:59pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | It's easy for me to arrange 8 or 16 tracks of professional semi-mobile goodness. Actually 24 would be possible, but we would need a seriously good reason to hoof it over there. Bit levels and many tracks are not all that important. Depending on the project you must admit that simple stereo recording has its advantages and its more portable. Awesome quality can also be achieved in the 4-6 mic realm, well placed, good mics and good mixing. Extensive Mixing has other pitfalls, and benefits as well of course. Maybe next time we shoudl try to book a full mixer room. Do they have those? Any largish consoles in there? What kind of music did you have in mind for that? What kind of problems have you had with the Delta? I do computers during the day, so it might be possible to find the issue. I will admit that computer troubleshooting is a black and inconsistent art.... Send me an email privately if you wish, you have the address. . . - Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:08am Edited: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:14am | ||
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