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A Home Recording Question
| Message Board > General Chitchat > A Home Recording Question |
| Ike User Info... | I have been doing a bit of home recording. I bought a Midiman Delta 66 soundcard with the OmniStudio Mixer/Breakout box. I also picked up a Studio Projects C1 condenser microphone and a ART TPS tube pre-amp. I'm using Cakewalk Sonar to record. I am having some difficulty recording vocals. If I push my voice I overload the signal and it sounds terrible. I was hoping someone could offer some advice with regard to what I can do to tackle this. I try to back off the mic when I sing loud, but it still really doesn't sound that great. I am thinking of buying a compressor. Having read several reviews I thought the ART Pro VLA (Tube Compressor) or the Focusrite Platinum Penta might be good options. They are both around the $600 mark. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:23pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | Getting a compressor is an awesome investment, your best bet is to contact people like Gary Brainless or Scott Henderson and pick there brain (of course, beer really helps, no not for you, for them silly :). Check your levels, do you have your mic going thru a line input or a seperate input? Best thing to do is bugfix and see what works (I'm not familiar with the hardware per say, but you're probably overlooking something rather simple). - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:32pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | It just sounds like you have too much gain. The Delta66 has it's own gain boost built in. It is meant for direct instrument hook up, it is not meant to be used to take an already pre-amped/boosted signal. You will almost always end up with distortion. Try plugging the mic directly into the Delta/breakout box and record it that way. Use the goodies in Sonar as your mic strip and see what happens. You shouldn't need a compressor... I personally use an Alto mixer to do all my gain/boosting then input to my computer using the M-Audio Transit card (straight up non-boosted digital audio input, 24 bit 96hz). The only limitation is I can only record 2 mono tracks at once (or one stereo track). But if you are recording by yourself at home, you should never need more than 2 tracks at once (you can always overdub later), and using an external mixer opens up tons of "gear" possibilities... Just remember to only boost the signal once. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:39pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | I'm wondering if I can take a computer mic, then build something to prop it a few feet from the speaker, and use WaveLab v4.00 to do some impromptu recording. I just need to buy another cheap mic cause I've misplaced the 2 I had. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:53pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Yes, buy a compressor. Make it as good a comp as you can afford (I bought a Drawmer MX series one for about $500 and it's worth every cent). Cheap comps aren't much use sometimes. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 5:14pm | ||
| BBJones User Info... | I still think buying a compressor for the type of setup he's talking about is a waste of money. Sonar has probably better software compression that what you would get in a $500 unit. And, you aren't stuck with the first pass through the compressor either... Just record the instrument as cleanly as possible. Then work it... If it wasn't goint to a computer for processing I'd say buy all the processing gear you can afford. But, since it is going to processed on the comp, don't spend a single penny on any processing gear, instead focus on good recording gear like high quality mics or a better i/o device. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:02pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Actually BB is probably right; get a good "software" based comp that can be inserted into whatever recording system you have on your computer. - Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:23pm | ||
| josh@moneyshot User Info... | You're probably overdriving the inputs to the delta 66. The delta 66 has 3 configurable pad settings, +4dBu(14dBu peak), +6dBV and -10dbV(0dBV peak). The TPS output can provide over 25dBu signal at low impedance, and could be easily overdriving the inputs to your delta 66 (10K input impedance). Configure the pad on the delta 66 to the +4dBu, and turn the output trim of the TPS down until it sounds good going into the delta. You want the signal as hot as possible without distorting for best signal to noise ratio into the A/D converters. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:12am | ||
| Ike User Info... | Thanks for all the tips. I'll try what has been suggested here before I try a hardware compressor. My basic understanding is, that no matter how I set the pad on the Delta 66 and the Gain/Output on the TPS, I am going to need compression if I really push my voice. Either that or I'm going to have to move three feet away from my mic and then try to deal with the change in sound that will result from more room reflection as I step back from the mic. I haven't played around with Input Monitoring in Sonar yet, but I assume I am going to have to go that route if I want to use a software compressor. Hopefully I don't run into any latency problems. Josh, when you say I want the signal as hot as possible going in, does that mean I should crank the gain on the TPS and then adjust the Output for level? Thanks again for all your help. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 9:15am | ||
| josh User Info... | well, the more you crank the input gain in the tube pre, the more tube distortion you'll get. One thing about tubes is that they compress as they distort. So although your signal will be more (tube) distorted, you'll have less dynamic range on the signal on the output of the TPS, and you'll be able to push it hotter without worrying about peaks clipping the input of the delta. If you want your vocals cleaner (less tube distortion), you're gonna have more dynamic range in them coming out of the tps, especially if you sing the louder parts alot louder than the quiet parts, so you have to turn down the output of the tube pre until the loudest vocals you're gonna do don't overload the delta. If your loud vocals are alot louder than your average singing volume, this sort of sucks for getting the best signal to noise ratio out of your delta. A hardware compressor could help you out here by reducing the dynamic range of the signal before it goes into the delta. This allows you to push the signal a little hotter into the delta to increase the overall signal to noise ratio by getting a hotter average signal to its converters. A software compressor won't do you much good, as it would be downstream in the signal chain to where the problem is. Try renting a compressor for a week to see if it helps before buying anything. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:40am | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | ditto on teh software compressor problem: it will not solve clipping. Any software plugs only take effect after the A/D conversion has occurred, and once you have clipped digitally, there is no undoing it, and it sounds like shit, so there is no point in using "input monitoring" (I have been using Sonar XL for more than 2 years now). Input monitoring is only useful if you want to add fx to the input signal, but it will not apply those effects on recording that has to be done after the fact . Go to homerecording.com/bbs and lurk there and read around, it is an immensely helpful website. You can use your Preamp and run it into the line-ins of the Omni, or just plug your mic into the XLR inputs of the Omni. But do not run the output of the ART into inputs 1 or 2 of the Omni, you will then be applying a second gain stage to the signal, and you will digitally distort...which does not sound good. Run the ART into inputs 3 and/or 4 of the Omni. If you find you are clipping the pres in ART or the Omni (depending on what you are plugged into), then back off the gain. You need to set the gain stage for your loudest points, and have them NOT CLIP. Ie. set the gain so taht your loudest signal will be roughly -3dB (to give you some working headroom after recording), in normal passages, tehn you likely will only be hitting -15dB, maybe -10dB. This is if you are a very dynamic singer. If so, you also really need to work on mic technique, back off in the loud sections, get close on quiet sections. Alternately, you can record them in separate takes: quiet bits, then reduce your gain and sing the loud bits using punch-in recording with Sonar. Try all this stuff first before running out and blowing $600 on more gear. It makes financial sense to learn how to work with the gear you have rather than falling back on new stuff all teh time, and most people don't really know how to get the most out of the gear they have in the first place. I have a few years experience with Sonar and Delta products working together now, so if you need any help, email me, and I can even come over and show you how to get the most out of what you have ... will work for booze. ANd seriously, go sign up at Homerecording.com/bbs, it is a great place especially for Sonar help and general recording stuff. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 2:33pm | ||
| josh User Info... | I agree totally with the mic technique comments. Good mic technique could save you the cost of a compressor. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 3:12pm | ||
| josh User Info... | also, how close are you singing to the mic in the first place. proximity effects in mics can cause even more dynamic range in the signal than is actually there in your voice, which might be a cause of your problem. try staying 6" away from the mic minimum, put up a splatter guard, or something. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 3:17pm | ||
| Ike User Info... | Lots of good tips to try out. Its definately easy to get too close to the mic. A wind screen in the face would probably be a good means of keeping me backed off. Again, thank you all very much for taking the time to offer some advice. Much appreciated. I'll post some recordings once I get a decent sound. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 4:07pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | There are some things that you need to use a compressor on while tracking (and if you talk to 10 engineers, you will get 10 different answers, there is no ONE WAY to do anything in recording), drums being fairly common, because they do send sharp transient spikes that can be 5-10dB above the rest of the signal, but on vox, I never use compression on tracking, and many engineers also never use compressors on tracking. I use a compressor extensively on vox after tracking in the editing phase but this is entirely to make the vox sit right in the music, and to bring up the quiet passages. Compression can introduce audible artifacts, and I make it a point to never record anything with fx (except electric guitar) because you can't undo the effect once it has been printed to the track if you used external gear on recording. - Thu, 29 Jan 2004 4:15pm | ||
| Ike User Info... | Thanks again for all your help guys. I went to L&M today and rented a compressor. I've been playing around with it tonight and here is the result http://members.shaw.ca/micastrong/home.htm The drums are loops, but I played the acoustic guitar and sang the vocals - only did the first verse harmmonies. Not great quality and I really don't know shit about mixing, but its alright. Thanks again. - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:08am | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | After reading this thread I've come to one conclusion. Wow, I seriously know fuck all about recording an analog/live signal :( Sigh... ah well, back to MP3ing :) But if anything, it just shows ya what you can accomplish these days as compared to 5-7 years ago home recording wise. Just listening to the MP3, it has a nice high end, but perhaps you should of made the MP3 192 kbps or higher so we could hear more audio information, and make a better judgement. Other then that, sounds awesome. It's a catchy tune. But what did you use to do the drum loops? - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 1:05am | ||
| Ike User Info... | I didn't build the drum loops. Sonar comes with a bunch of loops and there is a multitude of places on the net to get more. I just used two drum loops - threw each one into it's own track and set the tempo to 75bpm. I much prefer playing to a drum track rather than to the generic metronome sound. - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 7:15am | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | That is a great tune, but you could really stand to compress the acoustic guitar, there are some seriously high transient peaks that prevent you from pumping up the overall intensity of the track. I was just listening to that tune and imported the .mp3 into Sonar 2.2XL myself to see the frequency spectrum/etc. I have a few ideas you might like to try. If you have XL, insert the Timeworks Compressor into an auxiliary bus, and send the acoustic guitar through that bus. First set the compressor to a threshold of -13dB, output gain of 5, attack .10, release 350, RMS, soft knee, ratio 3.5:1, wall -2. Before the compressor, insert the Timeworks EQ, give a broad gain at 500Hz, Q= 1, gain 3dB, another gain of 3.3 at 1500Hz, Q=1, and a slight dip at 14KHz of -2dB, q=1. Apply those effects, tehn run the compressor on that track again, this time to smash the transients down, threshold -7dB, gain 2.5dB, PEAK, soft knee, attack .1, release 350, ratio 30:1. It will fatten up the tracks considerably. An outboard compressor will help to some degree, but the onboard comrpessor is Sonar XL is a killer compressor, and you can do amazing things with it. Email if you have further questions. Like I said, that is a great tune. - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:07pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | By the way, how did you mic that? It sounds like you mic'd and recorded both vox and guitar at the same time, where did you set the mic? Do you have more than one mic? You can get a fuller guitar sound if you use more than one mic to get your vox and guitar, stereo micing the guitar is a great tool, with a dedicated mic for vox. - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:20pm | ||
| Ike User Info... | Thanks. I'll try that EQ/Compression trick tonight. No, I recorded the Vox and the guitar seperately. I used the C1 for both. I positioned the mic about 5 inches in front of the seventh fret, on an angle so that it was facing down the fretboard toward the soundhole. I have a Beta 58 as well, but at the moment I only have one mic stand. Once I get another I'll try to mic in stereo. - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:36pm | ||
| ticklefish User Info... | Order a stereo pair of Marshall Electronics (no relation to amps) MXL603s mics. You should be able to score them for ~$300 for the pair. I have a pair of them and they do a great job on acoustics for a budget condensor mic. I think Tom Lee Music carries them, or can order them, I got them from the US. If you check out Homerecording.com/bbs and numerous other prosumer sites for recording you will see they get rave reviews (that is, for the price point). - Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:43pm | ||
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