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Musicians Beware of Upstairs Lounge!
| Message Board > General Chitchat > Musicians Beware of Upstairs Lounge! |
| Informed | I was talking to the band that played at the UPSTAIRS LOUNGE ON WHARF STREET Saturday Night. (Double Diamond, April 12) They were a little choked, they got stiffed for more than half of their pay. Club said because of numbers but no disclaimers were discused when THEY phoned the band to book. Just a "Take it or Leave it" attitude at the end of the night. Beware Beware Beware! Get money upfront if you can, or just don't play there. They will soon realize that Victoria is a very small community and news travels fast. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:49am | ||
| vox User Info... | I will definatley tell everyone that I know. These fucks will not get away with it! They better start looking for other forms of entertainment! Where they don't have to pay! Even DJ's will avoid the place like the plague!! Shame shame!! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:17pm | ||
| Holmes | You guys must have missed the thread about Diego's. Apparently, most musicians in this city are *happy* to play for free! H - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:32pm | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | Not when someone else is profiting. We dont mind playing for free when its a benifit show or if it is discussed in advance but not for the benefit of a bar getting rich. Fuck em. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:37pm | ||
| vox | Hey Holmes, seen you post several threads in different subjects. The one thing that stands out is that you are constanly missing the point. Whether bands play for free or not is not what is of concern here! A bar has fucked a bunch of players out of what was rightfully theirs, payment in full! Next time, please bring something valuable to the conversation! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:52pm | ||
| Holmes | If you read the other thread, you'd see that my point there was that musicians who are so desperate to play that they WILL accept nothing from bar owners make owners think that musicians in general are not worth paying and will take whatever is offered to them. I think that is pretty clear. As for whatever personal slights I may get from folks, I really am not too concerned. I got over the excitement of forum flaming when I was 13... or maybe 14. Whatever. H - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 1:05pm | ||
| All Business | Playing for free is fine if it is agreed to from the begining. That's a personal choice. To break a contract, verbal or on paper, is a different story. They should be held responsible for their business dealings! Do these people think this is Kiddy Land where if the deal you make doesn't go in your favour you can call "JUST KIDDING" and everything is void? Is a persons word not worth anything anymore? Sue the bastards! Or better yet boycott them! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 1:38pm | ||
| Curious George | "If you read the other thread, you'd see that my point there was that musicians who are so desperate to play that they WILL accept nothing from bar owners make owners think that musicians in general are not worth paying and will take whatever is offered to them." Every time I read one of your posts, I feel stupider. Please stop. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 2:14pm | ||
| Holmes | No. H - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 2:48pm | ||
| Anonymous | We can tell this Holmes is no Sherlock. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 2:57pm | ||
| Anonymous | Holmes, Shirley Holmes. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 3:01pm | ||
| Holmes User Info... | Look kids, get over it. Obviously, I'm not going to stop posting - certainly not because of any insult intended by the oddly not witty "Shirley Holmes." WTF? H - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 3:07pm | ||
| vox | Holmes-I agree that musicians should try and refrain from paying for free, but you can only deal with what the market supports. I have been playing music for over 20 years. Have toured accross North America several times (thousands of gigs). I have never played for free and never will. However and again (you hard headed cuddleswarp) this thread had nothing to do with that topic. I support a boycott on this place because they seem to think that dishonoring an agreement is okay. We're just a bunch of loser musies! If that is the case (I have only heard one side of the story) then they deserve whatever they get! It would'nt surprise me if they did screw the band out of cash! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 3:16pm | ||
| Anonymous | hey you can let us dream of a Holmes-free-LiveVictoria. We all need dreams. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 3:16pm | ||
| Canucklehead | Yea, we can only dream. Like his email address (holmes), tells you allot about him. smarterthanyoubythismuch@yahoo He probably reads every second page of a book. Try and follow along with the rest of the class there smarterthanyou! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 3:23pm | ||
| Holmes User Info... | Vox: Well, that's what I'm saying: the owners have the impression that musicians are worthless and spineless. It irks me most when it's the owners of a live music club. Where do they get this idea? Even if a whole bunch of bands boycott, I can guarantee you that other bands will be happy to take their place. Even after the mystery venue on the previous thread was announced to be the Brand New Diego's in the Red Lion, there is band after band saying they'll play for free and castigating me for suggesting that musicians should get the same treatment and respect as plumbers, for example. "It's all about the music, not the money" is a common refrain. So given this attitude *amongst musicians* is it surprising that the owners might think they can take advantage? H ps: The email address is my sarcastic reaction to being told I'm stupid, an idiot, a fag, etc... Jesus, and I get called humourless? - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 4:36pm | ||
| All Business | I have to agree with "Holmes". There seems to be an abundance of "musicians" who will play for next to nothing or less. Take for instance a certain pub out in the Western Communities that pays the bands $300 (if they're proven). Subtract rental of PA, monitors, lights, amp or guitar monthly purchase payment, and guess what, they are paying to play! How is a full time musician going to make a living when this is happening? NOT! When will these musicians realize that if their music is worth listening to, people will pay to hear it and they could make a life living the dream! Do they think the Beatles or the Stones would still be around if no one payed them? Sorry for the rant, had to vent. Have a better tomorrow! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 5:24pm | ||
| vox | Sorry Holmes, I agree with you one hundred percent!! My humble appoll's. It's true that there are losers out there that aid in giving owners the impression that we are spineless dweebs that will do anyting for attention. I for one stand with you in fighting that idea! People that play for free use art-for-arts-sake as an excuse to stroke their ego's. I'm with ya brother! Losers that keep those of us that know, down! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 5:36pm | ||
| Informed | Low-price musicians don't excuse a low-life club booking person from deciding that what he offered to get the band there didn't apply anymore. Can you say breaking contracts. When you make a deal you should stick to it or be held accountable! I heard the word "Law suit" at the club and it didn't come from any of the club staff. It has been done in Victoria before but not publicized. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 5:55pm | ||
| Lurker User Info... | I'm pretty sure the Beatles are not still around. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 6:17pm | ||
| Anonymous | Oh no! When did Paul die? - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 6:24pm | ||
| Informed | Small correction, as far as I know "Sir Paul" is still playing his heart out but not with the "Beatles". And I believe he still gets paid for playing, not that he needs it. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 6:26pm | ||
| tommy | I've never heard of Double Diamond and maybe not many people have. The club should have done some investigating first to see how popular they are and whether they could pack the place. I'm sure they would have asked the band and of course they would have said "No problem." Regardless, the band should have been paid what was agreed on and not hired again. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 6:54pm | ||
| Curious George | I would like to hear from a promoter on this issue, since they're the ones you're speaking for. I'd guess there's what, 8 or 9 people who regularly book bands in this town (be it bar or all-ages). Tamara? Logan? How do you guys feel about this? I for one have been stiffed only once in this town by an unnamed promoter/bar owner, but looking back, we didn't draw, so a lot of blame could be put on us. Ever since we've started drawing real numbers, I haven't had trouble walking out with money at the end of the night. Maybe Holmes' problem is that he's in a shitty band that doesn't draw, and is crying 'cause he can't make any money? - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 8:05pm | ||
| Curious George | Plus, I would fully play a show for free, as long as there was a reason for it (benefit show, helping out a promoter/bar owner who's struggling, etc), and I knew what I was getting into BEFORE I brought all my shit down. Screwing people over at the end of the night isn't cool, but I don't think any promoter who fucked someone over thought, "Well, gee, other bands play for free so I just assumed EVERYBODY does." Think about that statement for a second. It sounds stupid. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 8:09pm | ||
| Anonymous | Most of the bands in this city do not deserve to charge for their shows. I don't pay cover to watch bands with no talent or originality, or experience perform with crappy sound guys and lack of sight range. You should play for free if the only people coming to your show are your friends and the stragglers who leave 5 mins into your set. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 8:13pm | ||
| kiltlifter matt User Info... | "Hey [band], do you want to play my venue? I can't pay you, but you'll get great exposure!" "People die of exposure." - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:32pm | ||
| vox | TY Kiltlifter This other fuck is the reason for bands playing for free! Experienced or not, we should be paid! If not in cash, then in beer or whatever! - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:53pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | *sigh* You draw a healthy crowd, you get paid. You draw a lame crowd, you get nothing. You don't negotiate a contract before playing, your ass is raped by the bar/promoter because they will if you give them the chance. You don't like how the bars work...go put on a show out of your own pocket. It's not cheap! We've done it. Lost a good chunk of cash with a decent turnout. - Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:12pm | ||
| Holmes | CG: What's your damage there? We've never been ripped off. There have been shows where we've made smaller amounts of money, but this is usually a result of not getting a guarantee and instead, just agreeing to a piece of the door. This usually happens on tour and the other bands are most often quite generous with an out of town band. Of course, I agree that if you have made a solid prior agreement that the owner or promoter does not honour, then not only do they suck, but you *should* take them to court. H - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:29am | ||
| Curious George | Holmes - Do you actually play in a band in Victoria? I don't think there's a single bar in town that will offer a headlining band a guarantee. Steamers is 80% of the door, Lucky is 100% (I believe). Soundgarden was the door minus $200 for the sound guy. The only place that offers a guarantee is Steamers, and that's just for the opening band, IF the headliner agrees. If you want to make money, draw a crowd. Simple. If you can't draw a crowd, then you shouldn't be headlining. Or, at least, you shouldn't be bitching. - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:28am | ||
| King Bong User Info... | I have to agree with George here...ultimatley, taking money home at the end of the night is down to the band. I'm from LA and in my home town it's pay to play in most bars and until you can draw enough to cover your expenses you lose money! I think many bands don't have much experience in business or negotiation, and you either come to the table with those skills or you lose out...do enough shows at a loss and you learn what to watch for and what to ask for. KB loves to play but we don't overplay ourselves..that makes a Bong show an event, an event that drew little crowds at first,(read friends),but now draws good crowds and decent money from the door and merch sales. But WE made that happen by doing all of our own promo and because we are experienced musicians who have felt the burn before! It takes time to get paid anything decent, time and hard work, and an attitude that YOU are worth something, you just have to tell everybody that and it will come true. BC WEED Sticky Kola - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:39am | ||
| Holmes | Yes. I play in bands. At least fourteen years all over Canada and the States. Thank you. It sounds like some of you ought to get off the island once in a while. I don't think I implied that locals should expect guarantees. What I said was that unless you DO have a guarantee or a prior agreement, whatever you get is whatever you get. Victoria *is* a musician friendly city, for the most part. In many larger cities in Canada, venues do often have a pay to play policy. (In some ways, this can be good: if you know you're out of pocket if the show tanks, you may work harder to get folks out.) In the case that you have a guarantee or prior agreement which the promoter or owner does not fulfill, then take them to court, get the charges proven, get your money, and spout off about the case as much as you want. Here on Live Vic, you can anonymously post these articles about who ripped of whom, but unless these allegations are proven, you may be leaving yourselves open to libel or slander charges. H - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:50pm | ||
| Curious George | The funny thing about the "pay-to-play" policy is that in a way, Soundgarden did that. You paid $200 for the soundguy, and everybody was bitching about that! This is one point that I agree with you Holmes, some bands do need to get off the island. - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 1:17pm | ||
| socialist musicians | are these complainers the same musicians who are pulling welfare and hide their earnings (if any) from music and other sources? Play music cause you have to - not because you think you and 4 others can make $200 once a month - the guys at the upstairs lounge put alot of thier hard earned money into that club - they should be congradulated - and if you think you got ripped off, put your money where your mouth is and take them to small claims court - then post the reference number for the proceedings - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 2:38pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Tend to agree, although it's fucking slimy to promise a band a set "fee" for playing and then reneg, it's also incredibly stupid to not get the terms on paper. - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 3:46pm | ||
| Holmes | SM: I doubt it. Probably most folks here got full or part time jobs to support their music habits. You looked at the cost of music equipment and repairs lately? I sure as hell know that music is not gonna pay for my toilet paper, never mind food, rent, etc, unless something radically changes. That does not mean that I don't want to get paid for busting my ass to bring a bunch of people into a show and having made money for the bar to be told, at the end of the night, that I didn't make any money. Did you know that, in fact, some bars in some cities will actually give you a percentage of the BAR? 10% one place I played. Pretty fucking cool. H - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 4:41pm | ||
| Anonymous | Ok. I just heard the real story about what happened that night. Double Diamond was told that they would recieved all the money from the door. Which they got. They jusy weren't happy with the amount. They were charging $12 and still made $1200. I wouldn't be complaining, but than again there are 10 people in the band. - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 9:41pm | ||
| Anonymous | yikes...if anyone ever hears me complain about my band 'only' making 1200 bucks in a night, smack me upside the head with a rotten cock... - Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:48pm | ||
| vox | Sounds to me like the anon post stating that they have the real story is the owner/promoter trying to save face! I wouldn't believe this person. Why, because the band has no reason to burn a bridge (gig) if they got what they were promissed. However, Mr. Club owner has everything to lose. Get's a bad rep and no one will play there. Too late MR. Bar owner, damage is done! - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 3:49pm | ||
| Anonymous | So then there were only 100 people (plus whomever was on the guest list) at the show, right? P.S. Double Diamond is a Neil Diamond cover/tribute band that seems to be pretty popular with the older crowd. - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 3:59pm | ||
| killkrist User Info... | I agree Mr.Hell, if its a decent crowd than yeah the bands should get paid but also if its a shitty turnout, either way it cost the promoter cash to put the show on so if they are loosing money anyways why not help em out. fuck i have put on so many shows, so many shitty turnouts, have never broke a contract, but the bands have also been a big part of the decision and what they get. gotta look at it that way, if the promoter already looses money , you should be happy with what you get but if its on contract(signed piece of paper) than it shouldnt be broken no matter what, thats just the way it is, bands count on the pay at the end of the night to get them where they need to go or just help pay for them showing up... \m/\m/ - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 5:00pm | ||
| Anonymous | Anyone who plays without getting an agreed upon amount of money up front is a fucking idiot. DON'T PLAY FOR THE DOOR. You're not running the club, the club owner is. He can take the fucking risk. Victoria musicians shouldn't sell themselves short. If there's no crowd, it's often more about what kind of following the club has than the band (naturally, it helps if you band has a name and a following). Don't be such a bunch of weiners. If you band is good, then you're worth money. (And if you're band's no good, then practice, for God's sake.) - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 6:21pm | ||
| Oh Great | Double Diamond, another Neil Diamond cover band? What, Nearly No-one isn't enough for us? Jeez - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 6:26pm | ||
| Curious George | Excuse me? Don't play for the door? Does anybody actually read the posts before replying? I said it before, and I'll say it one last time... IF YOU CAN'T DRAW A CROWD... YOU SHOULDN'T BE HEADLINING. IF YOU CAN'T PROMOTE YOURSELF... YOU SHOULDN'T BE HEADLINING. THESE ARE NOT THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE BAR OWNER, THEY ARE THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE "ESTABLISHED" BAND. IF THAT'S TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY, THEN FIND A BAND TO OPEN FOR, AND TAKE YOUR GUARANTEED $100 BUCKS. - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 6:32pm | ||
| ask Joan Jett | played the Town House in Sudbury for $100-(the band) and bad pizza - horrible part of town in the armpit of Canada...but...the university radio station had played the crap out of our stuff and we had a great crowd and sold $400 in t-shirts - yeah we could have said wa wa wa but we had a great time and made some gas money - I love rock and roll!! - Wed, 16 Apr 2003 9:26pm | ||
| Anonymous | George - Your curious comments prove what a loser you are. It's not up to the BAND to promote the shows, you idiot. That's the club's job. The band's job is to play. Duh. What - do you think a band's going to spend three hours setting up, play a gig all night AFTER spending hours postering or some such thing? Don't be such a fucking wanker. It's guys like you that lead to bands playing for peanuts - or even free - and salivating at the chance. What a dick you are. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:45am | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | Any band that goes postering on the day of their show is fucking stupid and should be taken out back and put to sleep. Postering in advance is a good way to get word out about the show before it happens and helps with avoiding postering on said day. But if a band wants to create havoc and misery for themselves, I will take pleasure in laughing at them. As far as leaving postering to the bar...with that outlook, good luck in Victoria with your band. The reality is what it is. It sucks but that's life. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:51am | ||
| XY-SATAN | Most bands do , get their ass's out there and get the posters up or whathafuck ! But if the agreement was at said contract ? Then it should stand ! But then there's exposer ! So I guess it's up to small claims court ! But what Mr Hell said ...... :) - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 2:06am | ||
| Smarty Pants | This is a really good topic. I have been playing in the bars for the last 8 years. I know that 8 years doesn't make me an expert but there is one thing that I've learned about club owners. They will not go out of their way to pay you a lot of $. Get everything in writing! Work out before hand exactly what you will be getting. Write down the % of the door and if you get a cut of the bar. This might not stop the club from dicking you out of money but at least you have a signed piece of paper. Bring a friend with you that will double count the number of people that come in the bar. Befirend the bouncers at the door, if you're nice to them they'll be nice to you. Make sure that you thank the bar while you're playing and try not to piss people off. I'm sure there are bands that are happy to play for free but there are also musicians that are trying to make a living playing music. Equipment is expensive. Most importantly, sell merch. It might seem cheesy but if you want to continue playing you need money. Most bands that go on tour break even and make no cash except for t-shirts etc. Be creative and make things that people can afford. Stickers, etc. If you support other musicians they will support you... - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 3:03am | ||
| pretty | It is the club's job to help promote your band but don't count on them to do it. If you can't go to the trouble to poster and promote your show why should anyone go to the trouble to see it. You might be the best band in the world but who cares if no one is there to see you play. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 3:17am | ||
| Curious George | I'm sick of all these bands expecting to get shows and money handed to them by the bar. Anon, your argument is that after rehearsing and playing for hours blah blah blah, the band should not be expected to promote. Well, let's flip that argument around. After the club does it's share of promotion, be it radio, print, tv, whatever, and orders all the liquor, and handles the scheduling, why should they be expected to do ALL the promo. It's their responsiblity to make the bar a place where people want to go. It's your responsibility to keep people in the seats. I agree that a bar should play some role in promotion, but that is why Steamers prints and pays for their posters. Saves the band $$$. Atomique does a lot of print and radio advertisement. And Logan's has become a place where people go to hang out, regardless of the band. That's because Chris consistently books quality acts and has a nice, little, cozy bar. If you can't get people to come in, pay cover and have a few drinks, then that's because either a) you didn't promote it well enough, or b) your band can't draw. Both of those things are essential for you to get shows, make money, and be invited back to play at the bar. And I would challenge anyone who's currently in a band to prove me wrong. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 2:51pm | ||
| DON'T GET RIPPED OFF | If a band wants to poster, that's up to them. The bar shouldn't expect it. Let me put it another way. Say you work for a pizza restaurant, making pizzas. You provide the thing people wants, that is, a pizza. Well, what if the restaurant said, hey, business is slow, so on top of all the other crap you do, how about putting up ads. Or buying an ad. You'd tell 'em to fuck off. Said deal with a club. You're providing the "stuff", that is, the music. That's a commodity they purchase from you, the band. How they run their club, i.e. advertising, getting asses in the seats, is up to them. If they want to take a chance on a new band with no following, well, let them take a chance. Or NOT HIRE THE BAND. But don't cry the blues 'cause they're no one in your club. It's not the band's fuckin' fault. And like I say, if you're a club owner/promoter who blames the band, then don't hire them again, plain and simple. Of course no club owner is going to tell a known commodity like Sam Roberts to do his own postering. But they figure they can take advantage up local bands starving for gigs by saying at the end of a nite, "Hey, crowd wasn't good. I offered you $300, but you can take $50." Don't accept this, even if it means you never play that venue again. Don't leave the club until you get your dough. If you're band if good enough, you will still get gigs. This is only fair - and these guys know that. They just try to get away with stuff when they can. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 3:59pm | ||
| Curious George | For the record, I have never said that it's ok for a bar to reneg on a deal with a band. If you offer a band $300, or 80% of the door, or whatever, follow through, no matter how shitty the night was. But I'm sorry, DGRO, you're wrong. It IS up to the band to promote the show. When Sam Roberts played Legends, the bar didn't promote. But the PROMOTION COMPANY did, and they took their cut of the money. If you don't want to promote your own show, then hire someone like Metropolis to do it for you, but then you're going to be losing more money. But if you think that Legends put up even one poster, without taking any cut of the performer's cash, you're wrong. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 4:49pm | ||
| Brian | I think it's all kind of arbitrary.... - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 5:15pm | ||
| Anonymous | Curious George - You sound like a club owner. Either that, or you're in some kind of half-assed band that needs to kiss ass to get a gig. Get some self respect, bro. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 6:11pm | ||
| Ms. Messy | It is never okay for a bar manager to promise you a certain amount of money and then not pay you the agreed amount. Get it in writing. Most bands who became successful promoted their asses off. Motley Crue used to spend days and days fliering the entire LA area before they had a show. They would hand fliers out at other bands shows, house parties and make every single person they knew come and see them play. Promotion is key in a bands success. If you want to actually make it in this industry then you are going to have to do grunt work and put out fliers and posters. If you bring in a huge crowd then the bar will want to back and you can ask for more money. If nobody is at your show you can't blame anyone but yourself. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 6:35pm | ||
| Anonymous | I think it depends on the audience that you are trying to get too. Postering won't get the older crowds but will get the younger crowds. Radio will get the older crowds.. I guess it depends on the audience that you want and your promotional budget. Budget you say? Yes, clubs have one and if they don't use it because the band does the work for them, guess where the money goes? Not to the bands! Maybe the club owners pocket? - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 7:07pm | ||
| Curious George | Right... I'm posting these opinions to kiss ass. But yet, I have not posted my name or email address? Wow, that's sure going to help my band. I'm not kissing anyone's ass. I understand how hard it is to keep a bar going, and I don't think it's fair for whiny little kids in shitty bands to bitch out the bar owner for them not making money. You have to take some of the responsibility yourself. You will never get anything handed to you in this business, so stop looking for it. - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 7:15pm | ||
| vox | Curious, think that you should take off those rose colored glasses. Been in the business on both ends. Let's understand something here. The bars are not the ones taking the chances here. The bands have only their talent to work with. Bars in this town are trying to adopt the L.A attitude, pay to play! Let's make this perfectly clear!!! THE BAR OWNERS DID NOT OPEN THEIR BARS TO SELL MUSIC, THEY OPENED TO SELL BOOZE!!! As so often has been the case, the owners (at any time) can say fuck the bands and try many other forms of entertaining their patrons. This leaves the bands in the cold, I know! This owner in question sounds like a dink that had only his wallet in mind!!!! And at a drop of the hat, he could say FUCK THE BANDS! Which sounds like he should and will do after this debackle! So don't try your rederick with real players! Bars are in the business to make money on booze, bands can help that, so it's their responsability to advertise as much as it is the bands!! - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 7:50pm | ||
| Anonymous | Vox - I couldn't have said it better myself. Bands in this town are so used to getting dumped on and kissing ass (see Curious George) that they think, yes, it's a rare privilege to get hired and if anything goes wrong I must grovel. In fact, it's a simple business arrangement. You buy my music, I provide it. And the bar provides the rest. Case closed. (Ya got it, Curious?) - Thu, 17 Apr 2003 8:56pm | ||
| kiltlifter matt User Info... | Gotta agree with the value of using contracts. When touring, it's an absolute necessity (thank goodness for the invention of the fax machine!) Even for local shows, esp. when starting out, get a contract signed so the bar owner and the band is on the same page. The only gig where we got stiffed when using a contract was at the Royal Albert in Winnipeg, but their water tasted like chicken so we were quick to get out anyways. Plus, thinking about the Jets and the old Smythe division made me sad. In terms of promotion... I think people should look at it as a two-phase thing. The bar promotes in order to get people in and drinking (short term, or 'that gig'); bands should promote in order to further their name recognition in the public sphere / music scene as well as that particular show (long term.) Regardless, the ability to play music well and entertain a crowd should be always be reimbursed, so always work out a fee beforehand. If noone dances at a wedding, does the DJ not get paid for hauling all of his/her gear in and spinning tunes all night? - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 5:28am | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | I wouldnt pay him! haha but I do totally agree. That IS how things SHOULD be not they way the ARE though. Lots of bands will play for free just to get exposure (and club owners know this) so it makes it very difficult to negotiate money. The club knows if you want $200 that they can say no and a band who is happy with a free drink each will jump at the chance to play. - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:20am | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | you can get a free drink just for playing? what? - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:44am | ||
| vox | WOH-If musicians had a little more backbone, they would have seen the value of the union. Unfortunately, they saw their wallets before the value, that's why the union didn't work in this country. It works for jazzers, classical musicians in orchestras but that's it! If everyone joined, we wouldn't have problems like this sleezy bar owner! I understand both sides of the coin but I am a card carrying member. Even though not much is done for players like me. I agree with the morals of it, so I take part. If we all did, owners would be forced to live up to their responsabilities, no one would play for free and all would be happy. Short of that, yes, contracts are the way to go. (even though that won't insure that you get your pay! It's one step closer to insuring that you do! - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:38am | ||
| Wreaker of Havoc User Info... | Sorry Ross B ay, I didnt think you drank. Ive been 'helping' you by drinking all your free beers. - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 2:54pm | ||
| ROSS B AY User Info... | free beers? what? - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 3:31pm | ||
| Anonymous | Yes, all of you bands and musicians should join the Union!! You would get paid more! I could then become a sleazy promotor and hire scab musicians and make them play for exposure and reap the benefits MwaHahaha. - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 3:53pm | ||
| vox | Hey Anon, you miss the point. If we all joined the union, you'd be FUCKED! Learn to play an instrument and then entertain your crowds yourself. At least until the union came in and shut you down for not being a member! Mwahahaha! - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 5:07pm | ||
| Anonymous | You are kinda stupid. It was a joke. Never worked for a real union before? - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 5:34pm | ||
| vox | You're the one that's seems stupid, bringing nothing to a serious conversation. Go to some joke site and get yur yaya's out! - Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:12pm | ||
| Anonymous | Oh yes, I am sorry, I forgot that everyone who posts here is always serious. - Sat, 19 Apr 2003 2:15am | ||
| vox | In this particular thread, yes, the conversation is serious! Are you even a musician? Just wanna make sure that I'm not talking to an "American/Canadian Idol" or Karioki King or queen (one in the same). Some of us have invested many years into the study and performance of music! Debating with a wannabee is not something that I would find stimulating. Which was exactly my point, if your not going to bring something pertinent to the conversation, then why even bother entering into it??? Thus my suggestion to find somewhere else to get yer yaya's out! I know, you're a bar owner!!! - Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:23am | ||
| hey vox | Don't sweat the slagging from anonymous. The equation on this site is, make a intelligent serious remark ... and wait to get slagged from some death metal 19-year-old skateboard knuckle-dragger. - Sat, 19 Apr 2003 2:37pm | ||
| vox | TY-A fact sometimes forgotten! - Sat, 19 Apr 2003 3:07pm | ||
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