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Are sports an "art"?
| Message Board > General Chitchat > Are sports an "art"? |
| Nicholas Antoni Marek Gibas User Info... | I find this to be a very interesting debate topic. And what place better to debate than in this cesspool. Sports, the Rodney Dangerfield of Academia? Darron Cummings Gary Walters, the director of athletics at Princeton University, says sports should get the same academic respect as the arts. AP “Why can a young musician major in music, a young actor major in drama, but a young football player can't major in football?” Frank Deford Morning Edition, October 17, 2007 · Sport is not considered art. Instead, it is invariably dismissed as something lesser — even something rather more vulgar — than the more traditional performance activities. Now Gary Walters, the athletic director at Princeton, has spoken out that sport should be granted equal educational prestige with the likes of drama and art and music. "Is it time," he asks, "for the educational-athletic experience on our playing fields be accorded the same ... academic respect as the arts?" Walters validates his advocacy with unique credentials beyond the Ivy League. He went to the Final Four as playmaker on Bill Bradley's last team. He was chairman of the national Division I basketball committee this year, the maestro of March Madness. This is all to say that he brings the broadest perspective to college sports, and it mightily irritates Walters that sport is only considered a "distant cousin" to the arts. Well, apart from simply being so sweaty, I think that sport has suffered in comparison with the arts — or should I say: the other arts — because it is founded on trying to win. Artists are not supposed to be competitive. They are expected to be above that. We always hear "art for art's sake." Nobody ever says "sport for sport's sake." I also believe that sport has suffered because until recently, athletic performance could not be preserved. What we accepted as great art — whether the book, the script, the painting, the symphony — is that which could be saved and savored. But the performances of the athletic artists who ran and jumped and wrestled were gone with the wind. Now, however, that we can study the grace of the athlete on film, a double play can be viewed as pretty as any pas de deux. Or, please: Is not what we saw Michael Jordan do every bit as artistic as what we saw Mikhail Baryshnikov do? Of course, in the academic world, precisely that place where art is defined and certified, sport is its own worst enemy. Its corruption in college diminishes it so and makes it all seem so grubby. But just because so many ersatz students are shoe-horned into colleges as athletes and then kept eligible academically through various deceits, the intrinsic essence of the athlete playing his game should not be affected. As Walters argues, "Athletic competition nourishes our collective souls and contributes to the holistic education of the total person in the same manner as the arts." Certainly, there remains a huge double standard in college. Why can a young musician major in music, a young actor major in drama, but a young football player can't major in football? That not only strikes me as unfair, but it encourages the hypocrisy that contributes to the situation where those hidebound defenders of the artistic faith can take delight in looking down their noses at sport. So, yes, Walters' argument makes for fair game: Is sport one of the arts? Or, just because you can bet on something, does that disqualify it as a thing of beauty? Well? What are YOUR thoughts? - Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:15am | ||
| trevor corey User Info... | I am a martial "artist", yet my competitions are viewed as sporting events. Karate is an "art", interpreted in differant ways by differant "artists". When I perform Kata, I relate more to a dancer than a football player. Ballet dancing on the other hand is very athletic. Top notch dancers are easily in as good of physical condition as any pro athlete. Yet they don't get any respect from the sporting community, and most male dancers are even considered somewhat "fruity" by your average sports fan. I think sports can be artistic, and arts can be sportistic. They are the same in that they are our forms of entertainment. - Thu, 18 Oct 2007 1:37am | ||
| Kyle User Info... | Depends on how broad you want to make your definitions... I think they are different because art is supposed to offer commentary on the human condition, so unless we had "interpretive football" or something I think the distinction is pretty clear. Why does sports have to be art? What's wrong with being sports? - Thu, 18 Oct 2007 5:56am | ||
| Tyler User Info... | I don't think sports deserve academic respect because the training process is physical and not learned in academic ways. Aspects of sport such as history falls under other academic subjects. Comparing it to music though... here at UVic, musicians take requisite courses such as theory, history, musicianship, and such. I could imagine sport equivalents. But so much of music (and theater) can be learned through experts. Sports often rely on physical training and repetition. A coach is more likely to respect a player's physical performance than a Bachelor of Sports degree. - Thu, 18 Oct 2007 4:26pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | I've seen various amazing plays in various kinds of sports that were masterpieces. The kind that made me actually say, "That was a work of art." So yes. I think sports can be considered an artform, but not if the players suck and don't create any kinds of plays or strategies. - Thu, 18 Oct 2007 5:07pm | ||
| Tyler User Info... | how is a strategy a work of art though? I would classify it more like seeing some old bald guy solve a difficult math equation, or seeing some guy on a crosswalk dodge a truck. it's skillful and maybe dramatic, but I wouldn't consider watching someone who is good at a board game a work of art. so the same goes for sports. just because something is entertaining and takes skill doesn't really make it art. I think there are deeper aspects. - Fri, 19 Oct 2007 9:25am | ||
| Jl User Info... | "how is a strategy a work of art though?" /try reading sun tzu "art of war" or another book by(an author i cant remember) "book of seven rings"; then try and tell me that strategy isn't an art form. Strategy is a huge element in the "art" of "sporting". Without it you probly wouldn't have competitive level sports. Take squash for example(im a competitve 'a' level player); considered by many as "mental chess" due to the level of strategy invovled in exacting a win. Watching another "player" "strategically" win or "take apart" another opponent can be a graceful event to see. The element of strategy is more than just 'being good at a board game'; it involves being able to observe everything around you and while doing that making an effort to change the game(in terms of sports) to your favor. Im sure TrevorC. has an opinion that's similar to mine; should he have competed at any level of martial art. - Fri, 19 Oct 2007 2:04pm | ||
| Jeremy Baker User Info... | I think "sportistic" is a great word. - Fri, 19 Oct 2007 4:08pm | ||
| Andrew User Info... | no they aren't an art but letting some1 major in hockey or whatever (which could lead to a job in the nhl) seems fair enough. Isn't that the question? - Fri, 19 Oct 2007 9:27pm | ||
| Mr. Hell User Info... | To me, strategy is a work of art when it is done with panache and success. Many paintings and lots of music isn't art to me because it does not necessarily generate any excitement for me...art is in the eye of the beholder. Art is subjective and I believe that allows people to decide for themselves what is art and what isn't. I've lost track of all the times I've seen something that many consider to be art and have said out loud, "This is a pile of bullshit." Most abstract "art" comes to mind. And if those fucking 'Night is for sleeping...' mattresses and that pile of junk in front of the arena can be art, then so can a beautiful game winning set play. - Fri, 19 Oct 2007 9:38pm Edited: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 9:40pm | ||
| trevor corey User Info... |  Yes JI, I have medals and trophies. What I am most proud of though is a young nine year old kid that I personally trained and "sculpted" into a gold medal winner. Watching him develop from knowing nothing to competing and winning at the highest levels was very artistically creative for me. - Sat, 20 Oct 2007 1:16am Edited: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:35am | ||
| trevor corey User Info... | .....and I read Sun Tzu. - Sat, 20 Oct 2007 2:38am | ||
| tyler User Info... | i dont play sports but i have to say some sport are deffinatley forms of art, ie skateboarding. there no denying that isint an art, its freedom of expression pretty much, same as painting, and music. skate paint and grind or die - Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:44pm | ||
| Aidan Logins User Info... | This doesn't matter. "Art" and "Sport" are just words. Art is art. and Sport is sport. They have many similar aspects, but that doesn't mean one is the other. That's like saying "Why can't an apple be an orange? they're both round, both delicious, both fruits..." I think it was Goethe (but I'm probably wrong) who said something like "When the mind is at sea, a new word provides a raft." The problem of sport vs art arose because the writer of the article believed that sports didn't have the same respect as arts. But that's not true. It's just that different people respect different aspects of different things. The football people think ballet is lame. The ballet people think football is lame. - Mon, 22 Oct 2007 1:33pm | ||
| Aidan Logins User Info... | "no they aren't an art but letting some1 major in hockey or whatever (which could lead to a job in the nhl) seems fair enough. Isn't that the question?" and as for a university major in hokcey (or w/e sport). That's also silly. I mean, it could be done- but why? There are already ways to learn hockey and they work very good and some people get football jobs and some don't. You could possibly have a university major for every job out there. Why can't I have a janitorial major? I'm sure there's janitorial history, chemistry involved, lots of academic things about cleaning that I could learn. A sport major would be fun, but totally unnecessary. - Mon, 22 Oct 2007 1:37pm | ||
| Andrew User Info... | i was speaking for the people who are good enough for the nhl or say nba - Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:21pm | ||
| J User Info... | "and as for a university major in hokcey (or w/e sport). That's also silly. I mean, it could be done- but why?" what about all the national level coaches that have gone through the NCCP(national coaches certification program) to achieve the highest level of sport-specific knowledge; but are only granted a Level 4 nccp Cert. Those atheletes live breathe eat and sleep sports; dont you think they deserve a chance at a degree in their field just as someone deserves a degree in philosophy*(aka, janitoral engineer). It all depends on the person and what they can do well or excel at. Some people feel sports are completely retarded and dont deserve the time or day in acedemia, and theres others who think differently(like me). Im not saying there should be a "sport specific" "degree program" so much as there should be an area of sport where there is a possibility of a degree program; rather than a certification process(of which takes 4 years anyways to get to a national level coach). - Thu, 25 Oct 2007 3:05pm | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... | Seeing Mel Bridgeman or Brad Marsh skate - now THAT was art. - Sat, 27 Oct 2007 1:35pm | ||
| James User Info... | As Walters argues, "x-x-x-FILL IN THIS SPACE-x-x-x nourishes our collective souls and contributes to the holistic education of the total person in the same manner as the arts." This argument has been made a million times for various things. Like Aidan said, they may have some similar qualities, but one is not the same as the other. - Tue, 4 Dec 2007 8:22pm | ||
| Mutilashawn User Info... | Not a sports buff by any means .. but here's my two cents "I think they are different because art is supposed to offer commentary on the human condition" Think of boxing in the 60's/70's .. There is very little that can compare with this depiction of race relations at this time. Muhammad Ali, the Nation of Islam, even Rumble in the Jungle all brought attention to something bigger and more substantial than just two men slugging it out. "and as for a university major in hokcey (or w/e sport). That's also silly. I mean, it could be done- but why?" An actor doesn't have to get a university degree in drama to become an actor does he? But, he has that option. Why do you think so many athletic kids lose interest in school? Most argue because they are dumb jocks; however, the kids who do well in the arts have areas to excel in (drama, art, choir, etc.) while the athletes, who excel on the playing field, don't have the academic equivalent. I would bet the number of university degrees would sky rocket if specific sports became an option. Not just playing, but learning the history, significant in society, etc - it's all about the subject matter that stimulates the individual. Our model of schooling is still based on what the intellegencia of centuries past considered to be appropriate. People are not all the same and not all brains work the same, so why should the same model of success be applied to all students? The whole system could use an overhaul. (ps. trevor cory I was also an education minor .. just cause I know you're keeping track) And as far as Art is concerned: My brother is an aspiring body builder - those who know him can testify. The amount of work he puts in to achieving his goals is sometimes staggering. So much research, so much planning/strategizing, and so much heart goes into it. Ultimately, the final product is nothing short of art - the body is the painter's canvas - and, of course, it is still considered a sport. So the lines blur once you look beyond the surface level. Sport is just another method of self expression through the body. - Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:20pm Edited: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:23pm | ||
| Nicholas Antoni Marek Gibas User Info... | Mutilashawn FTW. - Wed, 5 Dec 2007 2:25am | ||
| JDL User Info... | nicely done mutilashawn; I agree to the ut-most degree! Dont think I could've said it more complete. - Wed, 5 Dec 2007 1:41pm | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... |  | ||
| James User Info... | UVIC has a school of Physical Education. You can take classes where you play specific sports, and you can learn about the history, social importance, etc. I really don't think that majoring in a specific sport makes any sense whatsoever. I really like rock music. I consider it art. Yet I don't thing it deserves its own school at university. Philosophy at UVIC, which is a relatively small department, has about 60 available classes for undergrads. Could that many courses really be offered on Hockey, Baseball, Weightlifting? Now that I think about it, I bet I could think of 60 courses for a department of rock music. (Even though the idea of rock classes is extremely cheesy.) - Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:27pm | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... | Rock classes! Yes! I'm in. - Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:33pm | ||
| JDL User Info... | "I really don't think that majoring in a specific sport makes any sense whatsoever." But that's the point, why should there be a separation between specific arts and specific sports in terms of a degree process? An artist strives to be the best or to impress upon others the qualities of 'said art'(ie, a teacher). What difference is it if I were to, hypothetically, as an athelete want to achieve the most out of my ability in sports? Coaches already have a certification process up to a national level 4 master coach(which is qualified for national/professional level coaching) and that's a 4 year program just for a certification(and its sport specific). I think they deserve a degree recognition for the amount of work put in just to get a certificate when there's poof's taking bird classes all day just to get a B.A.. I think that's more BS than sports specific degrees. - Wed, 5 Dec 2007 8:17pm | ||
| Matteus User Info... |  just a correction: it's the book of five rings by musashi Marimoto of Japan. HEAVY READ. In high school I played: rugby - 6 years olympic wrestling - 4 years track and field - 4 years X-country running - 4 years Field hockey - 2 years Gymnastics - 1 year Then I have gone to thailand twice to thai box for a couple months at a time. 3-2 record. The original article talks about: "Certainly, there remains a huge double standard in college. Why can a young musician major in music, a young actor major in drama, but a young football player can't major in football? That not only strikes me as unfair, but it encourages the hypocrisy that contributes to the situation where those hidebound defenders of the artistic faith can take delight in looking down their noses at sport." The fact is that there already are courses for sports. Look just how you compare them to let's say music: Camosun College Music Program Classes (from a friend who plays guitar in a rock band) Guitar theory Guitar practice Piano thoery Piano practice Musical history studies Chord Structure Study Jazz study Classical Study English (gov. req.) And I am sure there are others i don't know Photography Course (i'm going somewhere with this) media studies photography history chemisty of photography secondary art study (paint, charchol, fingerpaint) composition study technological aspect of photography For sports? kinesiology - the study of human motion and form nutritional study / dietian then toss in a little of what ever your sport is, sounds like a degree to me. (let's see if I bring this together since it's 5am) I'm a photographer, but when I go to school, I have to study so many more aspects to make me a fuller artist. Here's the outline from the western academy of photography: "The courses include Fundamentals, Composition & Design, B&W Darkroom, Colour Theory, Computer Imaging, Advanced Lighting, Business, Portraiture, Fashion, Weddings, Outdoor & Travel, Photojournalism, Stock, Advertising, Lifestyle, and Architecture." A quaterback SHOULD get credits for his athletic work but if he does not expand his knowledge of his craft to allow him to be a fuller quarterback, then he's just a sheep. If he understands the process of lactic acid build up, branched amino acids, fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle groups he will sharpen his craft to leathal focus. (But Brett Farve just has trainers, coaches, doctors and specialists to let him know this....) But sports can have business marketing, physics and cultural advantage scouting. The list goes on. OUTSIDE OF ACEDEMICS: are sports art? Art is something that grabs at my emotions. When I am in the presence or witness arts, I am awed, scared, contemplative, amazed or all of the above. Watching bruce lee's one inch punch = awe Watching NHL = amazed (hockey is intangible to me) Exeriencing thai boxing = life changing experience. And on a final note: Sports and music stimulate almost identical parts of the brain, something like 7 out of 11 regions of the brain are firing off while doing each. Cheers, Matteus - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 5:19am Edited: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 5:21am | ||
| JDL User Info... | book of five rings... my bad lol nevertheless excellent reads - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 9:15am | ||
| ShawnE User Info... | Sports are little more than a social lesson that create "irrational attitudes towards submission to authority" (Noam Chomsky), not to mention a major distraction from more important social issues (poverty, environmental destruction, government corruption)as well as a way of creating mindless nationalism. Art is a way to creatively express a dissenting point of view, demonstrate some individuality and to bring back some attention to things that actually have an impact on our lives. - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:39am | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... | Jeez - kinda heavy-handed, almost sanctimonious (and certainly wimpy!) indictment on sports, wouldn't ya say there, duuude? - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:14pm | ||
| Mutilashawn User Info... | That is a fairly apt look at ORGANIZED sport; however this discussion tends to favour Sport and Art in abstract terms. You could argue exactly the same thing if say your logic worked as follows - Music is an art, Britney Spears is a musician, therefore the merit of art is based on such. If that is the case, when we look at an "artist" like Britney Spears we clearly see no "dissenting point[s] of view, [nor anything that] demonstrate[s] some individuality [or] bring[s] back some attention to things that actually have an impact on our lives." To write off all sport as some bureaucratic tool is ignorant. The result of which cheapens someone like Matteus' experience - who has clearly achieved much inspiration and life changing moments through his sport. - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:28pm | ||
| Nicholas Antoni Marek Gibas User Info... | http://anarchistsoccer.tribe.net/ irrational attitudes and submission to authority? - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 3:56pm | ||
| Mofo User Info... | "Instead, it is invariably dismissed as something lesser — even something rather more vulgar — than the more traditional performance activities." First off, to suggest that sport is something 'lesser' sure as hell doesn't equate if you look at the paycheques of professional sports players...I'm really sure that they could care less if they are not accredited the title of "athletic artist." - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 3:59pm | ||
| trevor corey User Info... |  There is nothing wrong with needing a distraction from all the worldly shit that we are powerless to do anything about anyway. It's all about balance. - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 4:00pm Edited: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 5:17pm | ||
| Matteus User Info... | ShawnE, have you been reading books again? i think that comment definately cheapens anyones athletic experience. Sometimes a distraction is needed because everything is already being done to try and make a bad situation better i.e- poor countries struggling to get to their feet. If a little soccer raises some dampened spirits and helps unify the country, bring it on! (better than using fasism and genocide) Trevor, that is the funniest shit ever. I couldn't type cause I was laughing too hard. That guy doesn't even slow down. - Sat, 8 Dec 2007 8:10pm | ||
| ShawnE User Info... | My comment wasn't an attempt to cheapen your sports experience man. I too played all kinds of sports for years and they taught me many valuable skills and lessons that I wouldn't trade for the world. My comment was directed more towards organized sports where the focus is more on selling commercial products than it is about the actual sport. An example would be football games where the live audience waits for the t.v commercials to end before the game resumes. I don't see this as an attempt to try and do everything that can be done to try and "make a bad situation better i.e- poor countries struggling to get to their feet". I don't really think that paying an athlete a salary that is more than the GNP of many poor countries is really helping poor countries either. - Mon, 10 Dec 2007 9:16pm | ||
| Andrew User Info... | who cares - Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:50pm | ||
| JDL User Info... | who cares? maybe if you spent the majority of your life devoted to a specific sport and have practically designed your life around that "sport" as your career in life, you might care a little more as to what people think of others who consider sports(organized, team, solo etc..) to be nothing more than a "distraction". Its just as if someone came along and said(while you've played for the majority of your life) that your musical ability is nothing more than a distraction from whats going on in "real life"(i fucking hate it when people use that term "real life" not in the reality show sense but the whole agenda of "life" as if you were leading a "fake" life). I definitely see your point shawnE, but for a sport to become more than just a community level kick and giggle event; you need the big companies to step up and sponsor the elite level atheletes to broaden the popularity of sports(but depending on how its viewed you can certainly focus more on the "sid the kid" hype than the actual popularity of hockey, as an example). I, as an avid competitive squash player, only wish that squash had the viewer/player base of tennis or even hockey to where squash is recognized as an olympic sport or even have a broader spectrum of competition. But then again, the last thing squashers need is the "sid the kid" hype surrounding the game.(nothing against sidney crosby; but to be honest, the hype around him is making me sick) - Wed, 12 Dec 2007 1:45pm | ||
| Andrew User Info... | they dont hold sports in a high regard because they dont like them. you do, so you believe them to be more than just a game.. there will always be people who put down what ur into..they're the ignorant ones. who fucking cares.. - Wed, 12 Dec 2007 4:14pm | ||
| JDL User Info... | then is it better to let them just walk all over you for what you love? hells no, that's why I care and will continute to fight for the heart and soul of competitive sports. Just the same as Id fight for my love of music, or the next musician who believes in a)their music b)their ability. I wouldn't let someone walk all over me about my belief in sports nor would I let someone walk all over you for your belief in music. Stand up for yourself and maybe it'll change the way those ignorant minds think! - Wed, 12 Dec 2007 4:50pm | ||
| Curmudgeon Rocker User Info... | O.k. now that's a let point, there, buddy. your friend, Tom Ralph. - Wed, 12 Dec 2007 5:27pm | ||
| JDL User Info... | LOL right on doug.!! - Wed, 12 Dec 2007 8:20pm | ||
| Andrew User Info... | it's their loss dude.. :P i liked your post though - Thu, 13 Dec 2007 9:59pm | ||
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