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Recording Studio
| Message Board > Music Chitchat - Heavy > Recording Studio |
| Mr. Pine User Info... | Hi, My name is Aidan Pine and I'm thinking about starting up a recording studio here in Victoria. I'm wondering how interested you would be in this idea. And if you are interested, how much you would be willing to pay per song. Thanks. Aidan Pine. - Fri, 14 Oct 2005 2:30pm | ||
| ian johnson User Info... | probally be better to go at an hourly rate. depending on how well u know ur stuff and how quality your gear is should determine the wage, better quality means u can charge more... i geuss - Mon, 17 Oct 2005 6:35pm | ||
| qp User Info... | Hmmmmm. What a concept! A recording studio, right here in Victoria. Imagine that! -----------REALITY CHECK----------------- There are already many recording studios here and most of them are starving. I'd think about it twice before investing lots of money. Besides, it's so easy these days for anyone to record anywhere, with the portability and low prices of hard drive recording equipment. - Mon, 17 Oct 2005 9:27pm | ||
| The Box Drone User Info... | Yup, you're definately going to need some kind of catch if you hope to stand out. I can't tell you what that catch could be or else I'd be the one opening a studio :P the idea of charging per song is actually kind of interesting, as every other place I've looked at does it by the hour, but as was stated above, you could end up spending way too long on a particular song that way. - Tue, 18 Oct 2005 2:44pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | If you charge cheap rates and do stellar work, then eventually word will get around and you'll make a killing! - Tue, 18 Oct 2005 8:10pm | ||
| brad User Info... | By the song....? Just how the hell does that work anyways? so I'm in band "X", we're on take 8 of song #2, we still can't play it worth shit cause we aren't properly prepared, what then? put up with mediocre shit, or do you merrily record until its just right? New studios shouldn't be discouraged to open just because there is what seems to be an overabundance of them for the amount of bands/artists in town. But when the people that have been doing it for ages with stellar reps are slow....you gotta take another look at it... - Tue, 18 Oct 2005 9:49pm | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | If you have enough money and patience to survive for a decade or so with intermittent and low-paying work, it mighht work. I suggest doing CDR duplication and possibly package design and/or duplication as side business. Victoria is a strange place. Everyone wants things to be super cheap. Many are willing to accept less than stellar results for the sake of cost. If anything the proliferation of inexpensive devices for ones own recording has certainly cut into what full-sized studios can charge. Any studio owners out there want to weigh in: Zippgunn? By all means follow whatever dreams you have, just don't expect great wealth. - Wed, 19 Oct 2005 9:17am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Actually it's simple. Anybody can make a million bucks in the studio business. You just have to start with two million. - Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:36pm | ||
| mica User Info... | Yeah, there are no shortage of studio options here. However, there is no live venue that is set up and designed for "live recording" with an audience. I think it would sell if you had a cool and funky/artsy dinner venue (like an eclectic version of the Central Bar and Grill) with a quadraphonic or surround sound setup, a control room and a dedicated live recording set up. Shit, you could do videos too and sell "Best of" compilations etc. - Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:09am | ||
| Vegas J User Info... | I was co-owner of the Electric Cafe studio for about 5 years, and after equipment failures, expensive gear, and one guy we had to take to court 'cause he owed us $2000 ( and then went bankrupt) I gotta tell ya, unless it's a hobby and you just want the occaisional act to help pay your bills (like we did) don't bother. Hard disc recording is everywhere and most serious musicians are already producing awesome music on their desktops..and don't need a studio..and when they do there's plenty around. Having said that, Mica has got a VERY good idea & a new twist on an old theme..if you really want to get into the recording business then he's put forth a pretty intriguing concept! as a side note...does ANYONE know how Roan Sound has managed to survive all these years? - Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:29pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | That guy owed Electric Cafe $2,000?!? Ummm... what the heck did he do to owe that much money?!? BTW: I don't think any studio in Victoria can make a killing recording demos or anything, but then again I've never been in a band... yet. :) How much do studios on the mainland charge per hour (I've only seen Nettwerk and Mushroom studios, and one Halloween I went to some studio where both floors were a studio in a house by a parking lot, very cool!!!) Alas, I digress. And how many studios currently exist in Victoria/Western Communities?!? BTW Mica: Logan's could record live by someone bringing in a VCR, and connect the line out on the soundboard to the line in on the VCR. You get no video, but you do make a copy of the gig, and sound quality is better then cassette (I think). Zippgunn, HELP!!! Same could be done at Lucky bar with a VCR hooked up to their soundboard, I've never talked with their sound guy yet, so I dunno. - Thu, 20 Oct 2005 6:58pm | ||
| Vegas J User Info... |  As for Lucky..yes, they have a great little Mackie board & if Adam's doing the sound I'm sure he'd be happy to accomodate! I think we did something off the board there once. Cheers! Vegas! - Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:41pm | ||
| mica User Info... | What I was suggesting is a little more complicated than recording straight off the board - basically the suggestion is to develop a venue that is acoustically designed to record a live performance with high end equipment in a dedicated control room by a dedicated engineer. You could get some really cool material with ambient mics. You could also use the space to do regular daytime studio recordings (without an audience) and then mix the Live and studio performaces accordingly. Of course, you would need a substantial amount of capital to get started. But, if your product was good and the space was intriquing, I think it would fly. - Fri, 21 Oct 2005 9:25am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Oh sure, it would fly like the Hindenberg; great until all the start up capital is gone (and you would need a LOT of start up capital in this town, believe me)and then dissapearing in a big puff of smoke.. And for anything even remotely electrified (i.e. NOT a string quartet or acoustic folk band) you won't get much in the way of "neat ambient sounds" out of anything short of a church or large concert hall. In short, I think you are insane (and I'm going to guess there's a rich parent lurking in the background here as there always is or so it seems). To actually make it pay you would have to charge serious dough (upwards of $65/hr I'm guessing) and since there isn't enough talent in this town that can pay that kind of dough you would have to bring in bands from out of town which is tough when you factor in stuff like the ferries etc. Back in the '70's when I started doing recording almost nobody recorded themselves (and then it was bad demos on a TEAC 3340); nowadays I would guess that well over 50% of all the local releases are self-recorded and produced. Without really good gear and good ears any studio being set up today faces almost insurmountable obstacles to financial success. Now artistic success is another thing but... we all have to eat. Don't quit your day job. - Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:27am | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | I dunno, back then you didn't have the computing power you do today, and recording anything to a home computer was next to impossible to do. You can still record at home (and a decent example of home recording was the stuff Machine Gun Kelly released (although I'm sure Self Inflicted did home recordings too, and that sounded awesome)). But not everybody knows what their doing, and even know I convert analog recordings to computer, even I don't know what I'm doing. - Sat, 22 Oct 2005 5:09pm | ||
| mica User Info... | Zipgunn, you're going to guess that there is rich parent lurking in the background? Jesus, man - what kind of presumption is that? And to say that you couldn't capture ambient sound - have you never heard of a shotgun mic? I think it could fly and if you developed a reputation for recording live with an audience well, I think you'd attract talent from here and abroad - even with the cost of a ferry ride. - Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:42am | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | My presumption is based on fact; I would say at least 65% of the studios in town would never have happened without a rich dad supplying capital. As for the 'live recording" angle I can assert that I have had fewer than half a dozen requests for such a recording in 23 years of recording creative artists so I doubt it would fly. And you say you would use a shotgun mic to capture the ambiance of a room?? Why? No engineer worth their salt would even consider such a thing with the other options available (a double figure-8 Blumlein setup or a ORTF setup or an M-S setup, all of which are the best way to capture room ambience in stereo). Which is beside the point; for any kind of "pop" recording the engineer really wants to get rid of the room ambience (unless you're recording the Cowboy Junkies or p:ano or somebody incredibly quiet). And unless the band is incredibly proficient at playing their stuff without any errors the prudent live record producer tries to have the band play multiple takes of each song with the same recording setup (either by doing extra sets and or nights or recording soundchecks) so there are options if someone fluffs a note, breaks a string, drops a drumstick etc. No band prepared to deal with all this (and has the budget to afford it) would want to record in a backwater like Victoria; half the appeal of many live albums is the cachet of the location itself (Budokan, Fillmore, Hammersmith). This town has no such cachet. Therefore I feel it's a pipedream, albiet a worthy pipedream. Don't stop dreaming. - Sun, 23 Oct 2005 6:35pm | ||
| wheate User Info... | Why do Sound Engineers get so surly and jaded as time goes on? Lighten up! Jesus, if this guy wants to try to start soemthing up, even if it does take his dad's wallet (which was a retarded presumption) who cares? If it truly is his passion then borrowing money for start-up shouldn't be perceived as shameful. What's the difference from a bank loan? A better interest rate probably. - Sun, 23 Oct 2005 8:06pm | ||
| fred birken User Info... | This is a saturated market, recording-wise; Most local studios suffer from a lack of what is so dear here though, and that's ROOM. A main room ought to be around 30 by 50 with 15-20 foot ceilings. There ought to be a couple of smaller iso rooms. You need some serious acoustic treatment and there is heavy physics going on which requires a central design strategy based on the firm realities of sonic energy. Then there is marketing, on the other end. Keeping the studio working. Between all that are wee details like a business licence, insurance (at least liability for visitors/self if not for all the gear), a business plan and accounting/billing system... preamps, master clock, cables, stands, mics, blank media, media writers, recording/processing software and hardware, Expertise!, and a client base. Woodshop up near Duncan is the closest the Island has to a proper facility that's public, that I have seen. And it's still a little cramped! Then again, if it's a fancifully driven thing to record friends and self with, why're ya asking whether ya oughta? Go for it. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:18am | ||
| mica User Info... | You know Scott, I played a show at Logan's around a year ago for which you took care of the board and someone taped a "Kick me" sign to your back. At the time, I thought it was a lame thing to do, but in retrospect I think maybe you need a good soft shoe in the ass to kock some of the bitterness out of you. Every time I read a post from you pertaining to "the business" as it relates to Victoria and Victoria's music scene, it ends up being a negative diatribe detailing all that is wrong with our "backwater" town and how ultimately, the path will lead to failure. Newsflash, dumbass! Victoria is a very highly regarded destination. Despite what you may think, people like and want to come here. Moreover, they will pay good money to do so. I know you're well regarded in Victoria's recording culture and history, but you've got to fucking lighten up man. Instead of telling people that their pursuits and/or ideas will be fruitless like you're some kind of fucking soothsayer, why don't you tell them a little about your mistakes - things you could have done differently to maximize your success? Ranting and raving and making sweeping generalizations doesn't help anybody. You don't have to believe everything you think. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 8:53am | ||
| ML7Mike User Info... | acousticaly, best room in town is probably Zero Gravity's rooms. Control Room comes with 2 20" widescreen LCD's and 60" Sony flat screen tv for video work. Warren Livesy was recently in there producing some local 604 projects. No more SSL console, it was sold to the Sarah Mclauchlin team, so rates are a bit more affordable now. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 8:59am | ||
| Mica User Info... | Oh and to the whole "No engineer worth his salt..." bit - No, a good engineer is an engineer who is willing to look at any and all possibilities to set a recording apart and make it unique. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 9:15am | ||
| lonemonk User Info... | I don't really want to add insult to what has already become a complicated post, but here goes: Mica: "Why do Sound Engineers get so surly and jaded as time goes on?" In a way I think you are seeing the first-hand effects on a person trying to run an honest studio for 20 years full-time in Victoria. Sure other outcomes are possible, but they are very few and far between. As Victoria grows, and you mentioned it is, perhaps bigger and juicier possibilities will arise. There still wont be enough room for more than a handful of the variety being talked about in this post. Perhaps when the time comes I will give it a go; its one of my dreams as well. For now its a poverty-stricken industry. Jaded it might be, but it still has a solid basis in direct experience. I've got one other question. How come people asking this kind of question almost never participate in their original query? Persumably Mr. Pine could have cleared up some misunderstandings long ago. Even though this discussion did get bogged down a bit, there is still valid points from everyone worth considering if the original question was serious enough. Anyway, I notice that happens a lot. You can tell it wasn't an existing studio owner from abroad trying to find out if he can move to Victoria yet, because it would be foolish for that to be the extent of the 'market research'. . I think you've hit the nail on the head birken. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 1:34pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | Hey, the guy asked for feedback and I gave it to him. If you don't like frank discussion of something that I know a hell of a lot more about than you then tough titty. I'll tell Mica this much; I have NEVER EVER seen a shotgun mic in a recording studio in my life (and I've been in a lot more studios than you have I would wager). And there is compelling evidence that the "recording studio" business is in serious decline. One need only to note the demise of such well known studios as the Hit Factory in New York or (closer to home) Little Mountain Sound in Van. And if I seem a bit bitter then perhaps it's because the history of recording studios in this town is littered with tales kids from somewhere else moving here with a bunch of Dad's money set to "put things right" in Victoria. They show up, set up shop, do some work, (sometimes) talk some shit about all the other engineers in town, discover just how hard and futile it is to make a living in this business and then give up, sell all their shit at 10 cents on the dollar (often to people like me) and then blow town. In the meantime their existance, however brief, puts a big crimp in the business of everybody else in town. The typical studio in this town lasts a maximum of 5 years, much less if Dad isn't involved. Mine's been around for 23 years, Brainless' Rat's Nest not much less and the rest... Funny thing is neither Gary or I had any help from Pop. Makes you wonder. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 2:32pm | ||
| _Griphin_ User Info... | SHOTGUN!!! - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 4:13pm | ||
| pubert User Info... | whacka whacka whacka! - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 7:20pm | ||
| fred birken User Info... | ZG, well said. IMHO there is a massive general disconnect between the concept of what studios do to survive and what potential studio "visionaries" hope to achieve. The landscape is littered with the insufficiently educated (I do not mean schooled) wielding questionably designed, equipped, set up, and utilized, tools of audio generation/recording/production ... and on the other side of the marketing window, people jamming earbuds in to listen to mp3, aac, w.h.y. resolution-reduced audio regeneration. Adamantly. On both sides. One could, were one so inclined, trace cnnnections between this massive degradation in what so many of us have strived all our lives to provide [a captivating, uplifting, transendant aural experience], and much of what society is going through on every level, every strike and emergency response, relationship breakdown... Things are moving two ways. At the same time as the iNano and social disconnect-inducing, horrible sounding earbuds, there are more and more home DVD players capable of delivering full 2.?GHz SACD in surround. DVDA at 96/24. Movie soundtracks with stellar audio quality . Concert PA systems which are becoming truly fabulous. Thaings may turn around at some point. Some studios, Greenhouse in Vancouver, Beta in Edmonton for eg, are hanging on by their whitening nails. But they're hanging on. And they are world-class, staffed by world-class serious heavy folks. No shiny Merc, or funky boat anywhere in sight. Wanting to work with electronics and audio means learning about mass, density, inertia, frequency, resonance, resistance, conductance, tuning, timbre, phrasing, melody, psychoacoustics, absorption co-efficients, work habits, efficiency, quality, reliability, artistry, creative solutions, solid technical grounding, years of practice and further development of technique so as to forget about all the necessary stuff that's gone into building the solid acclaim, demand, and frail gossamer livelihood... Will things turn around? Will the wonderous audio "we" are able to produce become necessary to enough people who participate in the market of purchasing recordings to continue to self-sustain? Anyone, everyone. Go watch the Tom Dowd Documentary DVD from Pic - a - Flic. Go. Then with libation(s) of your choice, jes' set and reflec' for a while. oof. g'nite. - Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49pm | ||
| Zippgunn User Info... | You allude to a subject near and dear to me; the fact that with the advent of mp3 were are now actually taking steps BACKWARD in audio quality in order to cram more material on less computer space. Seems very few people seem to give a shit about 24/96 super digital audio. They just want to have a credit card sized device that gives them 300 songs in decent audio (not unlike old fashioned AM radio) super easy. Me, I have yet to do a session in anything higher than 44.1/16 bit digital; since that's where it all ends up I figure why go any higher? Most people aren't picky about the audio on most pop recordings. In fact most people nowadays are damn near deaf by the time they're 40! The world has a lot more ambient noise than ever. sure, there will always be a market for super high quality audio recording facilities but they will dwindle in number over time and be centralised in the major media centres. Me, I still dream of setting up a Gulf Island version of Compass Point with both a 24 track 2" Studer AND a full DAW system that I could rent out to the Stones or whomever for ten grand a day. Anybody want to lend me about $5 mil? - Tue, 25 Oct 2005 1:34am | ||
| XY-SATAN User Info... | I say, yea drop a few million in Devin Townsend's lap and make a DEVYLAND STUDIOS (DEVYS) in Victoria ,hey man we're set up for all their throw a TV set out a window , tourist, family crap needs.... and the weeds X O LEN T ! ! I'm thinking St Ann's Academy That's why you need a world known producer as a draw . Yea know like David Foster ? ....... oh yea he lives in L.A. with his own reality show . And tears ARE not enough . Mica, I agree with yea .... but I also agree with ZIP when it comes to reality . Hey, their strip mining for talent to get $$$ from local ( Van ,Vic ) success . They have their own Recording people . ..... until any of you get known , I'm thinking I'll be seeing you at the next show . - Tue, 25 Oct 2005 1:56am | ||
| fred birken User Info... | Working in 24 bit is more pleasant than 16, and dithering to 16 bit for CD-DA output is less zippery (no pun meant) sounding than raw 16 bit. As for the hearing issue, this is indeed a bleak prospect, although my observations are indicating that there are many many people who naturally care for their hearing, and others who actively seek out auditory stress relief such as with fitted earplugs, electronic neutralising headphones, etc. The odd style-monger in their subwoofer driven infrasonic filled little roaring cars, frequent flyers who leave their ears exposed (and put screaming loud headphones on), rock concert goers who stand in loud resonant nodes or in front of the PA (+120 dB !) ... oh dear. If, in a sound-pressure filled environment, you can't quite hear your own voice when speaking at a normal level, or strain to hear others -- that's a sure indication you bettah be stuffing some protection into your ears. Listening, though is the critical factor. Our senses are a vital but small part of the perceptive schema. Listening, Seeing, Feeling ... many are simply not being mindfully aware, in a sensory capacity. Look at the recent teacher's strike as an example of not listening! Who can even state what the issues were? Besides the deliberate obfuscation on the Gov't level, could it be that in such an exalted position, people are just not listening? However, all of this diatribe brings forth another very prominent truth. Most people are buying a song, not a recording per se. Home/personal playback systems used to be the family piano and sheet music from the drugstore... those are our roots. The Song. - Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:58am | ||
| qp User Info... | I moved here recently from San Francisco and I can tell you that in just a few years, the commercial recording studio has become an endangered species. Between a troubled record industry and new technology that makes studios and their expensive equipment all but obsolete, only a handful are still able to stay in business. With the extraordinary capabilities of the digital recording system called Pro Tools and the rapidly dropping cost of hard disk storage and blank CDs, musicians can set up their own recording studios for a fraction of what it used to cost to make albums at commercial facilities. The days are over for a pure music recording studio.The survivors need to have a low overhead and do a variety of things. I don't think you can make it as an independent studio anymore. As thousands of home-brew recording operations spring up around the country, high-priced recording studios in the Bay Area are closing, no longer able to afford the half-million-dollar consoles and analog recorders they leased when people still recorded on tape only a few years ago. While studios everywhere scramble to accommodate this new world, Pro Tools, a software program that makes the previously impossible possible, has fundamentally changed the way music is made. Entire careers have been credited, for instance, to just the auto tune option of Pro Tools -- which electronically puts off-key vocal performances in tune. Musicians playing together live in the studio are rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as with the Santana record. It's all data manipulation now. Where is the striving for excellence? The take after take of reaching into the depths for a performance? Now they don't have to do that. The machines make the less talented people sound almost as good as the talented. On one side you have the Pro Tools technology enabling people to go anywhere and do what they want and on the other side, the record companies are slashing budgets and staying home. Everything's in New York and Los Angeles. The producers, the engineers, the managers -- they're all based there. The record companies. They want to stay there. They don't want to travel. The Bay Area used to attract studio clients from all over the world. Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel both recorded parts of their first solo albums in San Francisco. The list of historic albums made during the years at the Plant runs from landmark '70s recordings by Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Wonder and Sly Stone up to last year's Dave Matthews Band record. During the past 10 years, albums have been recorded in Bay Area studios by Keith Richards, Pearl Jam and R.E.M., among others. But very little of that business remains. Nobody comes to San Francisco to record anymore. But by the same token, nobody really goes anywhere to record anymore. In the record industry's new austerity, the creative retreats offered by famously remote recording facilities -- Caribou in the Colorado Rockies, AIR Studios on the Caribbean island of Montserrat, Bearsville in upstate New York -- have largely disappeared. Leslie Ann Jones, chief recording engineer at Skywalker Sound, said she still does pick up an occasional client looking to get away from it all while making an album. Faith Hill is one who recorded her latest last year at Skywalker Ranch in western Marin. But million-selling clients are few and far between for most recording studios these days. With record sales plummeting for three consecutive years, the major corporations controlling the record business have drastically cut most recording budgets. A new band recording its first album used to spend between $150,000 and $300,000. Today, it's rare for a group to get more than $100,000 to record an album. Instead of taking four to six months working in recording studios to finish an album, a band nowadays is likely to spend less than six weeks in the studio, doing much of the work at smaller, less expensive Pro Tools studios, often owned by the musicians themselves. Third Eye Blind, for example, recorded some of the basic tracks for its new album, "Out of the Vein," at Skywalker Sound but did most of the recording at the band's own studios in downtown San Francisco. Virtually the entire new album by Metallica, "St. Anger," was recorded at the band's San Rafael headquarters. In 1995, the band holed up in the Plant in Sausalito for eight solid months recording "Load." and "I miss Metallica". People have to try and expand what they're doing You can't run the business the same way. If people are going to use Pro Tools in their bedrooms, you have to be able to offer them something they can't get elsewhere. The Plant in Sausalito has invested $6 million in the Plant during the past four years, rebuilding studios and adding a 2,000-square-foot preproduction/rehearsal room that will rent for a modest $500 a day, including a Pro Tools setup. They added surround-sound mixing capabilities and a mastering suite (the former Toast Studios on Mission Street, where Neil Young and others made albums, has been converted into a mastering facility that does no recording). Fantasy's offering an array of services has been key to keeping clients coming through her doors. Many of their clients are amateur or semiprofessional musicians recording their own songs. Studios still offer some advantages. Some musicians prefer to record the drums in professional recording studios where an acoustically designed room can be an important factor in the sound. Mixing records at commercial studios can benefit from additional studio equipment and sound processing. Studios in the post-Pro Tools world need to focus on what you can't do at home. The studio can provide different elements. You can have a great sounding room, an assortment of good mikes, some analog outboard gear. - Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:53am | ||
| The Wolf User Info... | This is an interesting thread to read.. How about a start up company "Ian Thow Recording Studios and Grill"... Could spend Millions of suckers money...$$$ The supposed "Glamour" of the recording and food business...Just gotta round of some Dentists and Dr's and Elderly for the first round of Capital $$$$$$ I Kid , I Kid ...unless you are investing - Fri, 11 Nov 2005 6:50pm | ||
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