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Aboriginal Relations
Message Board > General Chitchat > Aboriginal Relations
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Pierce
User Info...		 This article was written in The Aurora. which is a local newspaper from my home town in Northern Labrador. It is a very blunt and to the point opinion from the editor. I was surprised at how simply put it is, and I somewhat agree, although, there are so many other factors involved.



Special treatment

Everyone should abide by the laws that govern this country no matter what race, what religion or how big or great anyone�s great-grandfather was.

When a bunch of 60 or 70 Quebec Innu can go into a prohibited hunting area near Cache River earlier this month and slaughter 30 caribou�in what they try and condone as a �protest� hunt�and get out again without being arrested, has to cause some wonderment.

Chief Rosario Pinette defended the massacre and slaps up how settlers in Newfoundland brought about the extinction of the Beothuks back in the 18th century.

Aboriginals who use their ancestry and their �culture� as an excuse to do the like of this are making a complete mockery of their forefathers. That isn�t how these early settlers survived. Yes, they survived by the land but they took what they needed and no more.

It�s time for this province and this country to stop making allowances for such deviance simply because of their Aboriginal status. Everyone should be treated alike. If a bunch of white men went out and did the same thing in that same prohibited area, the ramifications would be quite different.

Both levels of government act like guilty parties when they make allowances for Aboriginals that don�t apply to all other Canadians. The federal government recently announced funding of $182,027 as a contribution to the Labrador Inuit Association, which is �supposed� to develop and expand its relationships with governments and other agencies. Why do taxpayers have to pay for that exclusive relationship?

When you look at the publicized accounts (over the years) of the problematic Davis Inlet and how it was dealt with, it�s pathetic. The �Healing Process� became a buzz word when six little children died in 1992. The province and the country began to see a problem of substance abuse�children were suffering greatly.

Less than a year later, the whole nation viewed horrific scenes of children in Davis Inlet sniffing gas and threatening suicide; the community was without a doubt in crisis�the whole country took notice.

Shortly after, the Mashuau Innu asked both levels of government for relocation from Davis Inlet while the children were sent out to Manitoba for treatment of solvent and substance abuse�along with their families.

Government came to their assistance but before the year was up, the RCMP and judge were booted out of Davis Inlet, the Innu wanted to have their own control. They didn�t approve the sentences and laws the government�s law keepers inflicted upon them. Police were banished with an understanding to only come back if their services were requested.

A little over two years passed and the RCMP returned to Davis Inlet but only with a memorandum of understanding between the federal government and the community to have tribal police work with RCMP.

In 1996 the federal government granted the Innu�s request for relocation. A move with a $90 million price tag, along with transitional funds from Health Canada of $1/4 million (1996) to help the Innu �cope� with the move�each year the coping fund (though lesser each year) came till the relocation was complete.

In the meantime, the solvent abuse and gas sniffing continued. Another tragedy in 2000 hit the community when two adults and three children died in a house fire.

The Innu chief asked Health Canada to remove children for treatment and 37 children were taken to the Grace Hospital in St. John�s for treatment.

By February of 2003, 100 homes were constructed in Natuashish but before the rest of the homes were completed, new homes were vandalized and continue to be.

The social problems came to the new community indeed. The Innu seem to want to live like the rest of Canadians when it comes to receiving funding but when it comes to following its laws, they aren�t so willing to embrace the system.

We all have laws to govern us and no one should escape punishment or repercussions when injustices are committed. Everyone has a heritage and a culture�you don�t have to be Aboriginal to have that.

European settlers came to this province and settled in parts of this land that were never before inhabited. They (too) fished the oceans, harvested the land and left descendents who are still in this province today.

When a cod moratorium was implemented, the fishermen chanted that it was their culture and heritage. They didn�t like it and still don�t, but the law prevailed and consequences of breaking that law have been felt.

It doesn�t matter if their great-grandfather came from Europe in an earlier century and handed them this legacy. They were forced to adapt to this change anyway.

Being Aboriginal, French, English or Irish shouldn�t be a determining factor in how we abide in this country. We are special simply because we are Canadian and all Canadians should be treated equally when the day is done. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:14am
BBJones
User Info...		 I know little about the facts on the issue nor the history, but I like the approach of one country, one law.

At the same time, that is unrealistic I think. People and groups of people especially those from different cultures or histories have different needs and live their lives in different ways.

Canada has proven itself to be a country that is flexible and allows these types of diversities. With that I agree.

But, when there are environmental or ecological conerns, they should apply to all citizens in the country (I use the term "citizens" since Starship Troopers was on TV on the weekend).

If there aren't enough fish in the ocean, no one should keep fishing no matter what their reason. Everyone in this country is protected by the government to not starve. They don't always do it right, but those programs do exist.

So my final opinion is let people do what they want, until what they do starts to affect everyone around them. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:35am
ROSS B AY
User Info...		 my cats' breath smells like cat food... - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:05pm
Mr. Hell
User Info...		 No matter what the circumstances, I fully disagree with double standards.
I'll leave it at that. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 2:33pm
jay brown
User Info...		 I am the farthest thing from racist but there does come a time when your not helping anyone by giving anymore. My family came here in 1756 we still have the diary actually. So how can people say I'm not native I was born here my father was born here my grandfather my great grandfather. I know it would never happen but it sure would make a lot more sense to help out the communities that are in trouble instead of just handing big wads of cash over. It seems to me like it's pretty racist to say I'm not a native canadian, I was born here and it sure as hell isnt my fault that someone hundreds of years ago decided to get in a boat and go on a trip. I dont know, I like native culture I think it's pretty damn cool and I dont mind having some of my tax dollars going to preserve it. I just dont like feeling like I'm playing a game of three card monty with my money. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 3:13pm
Pierce
User Info...		 "The federal government recently announced funding of $182,027 as a contribution to the Labrador Inuit Association, which is �supposed� to develop and expand its relationships with governments and other agencies. Why do taxpayers have to pay for that exclusive relationship?"

Thats a good one. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 4:57pm
Demen Ted
User Info...		 Thank god... I thought I was the only one who thought like this. Its just not fair! And, in a semi-sorta-kinda-similar, but smaller incident: I wasnt allowed into the school library last wednesday at lunch for a free salmon lunch (provided by the school board, as I understand) because I am not native. Jay Brown, I agree, I sure as hell think the last 4 generations of my family constitutes me being about as native as anyone else in Canada...

When I brought my views to a few of my teachers, I got me and some friends of various ethnicity together, and got us all to write letters. I requested a "Polish perogie day" for all polish people in the school (I do know quite a few polish people in my school, actually), and I got my friend Tu to ask for a "Vietnamese soup day" or something, and my friend Sam to ask for an "African Refugee rice day" (haha, best name, hehe) and my total redneck friend to ask for a "Hick runned-over-deer day".

Their response?
Dentention for 3 days... Well, only me, "the ringleader". Oh well. I thought I made a point, even if that point was only made to a handful of people.

I am just as stupid and screwed up and in need of free stuff as anyone! Except my bassist... Man that kid is a tard... Hehe.
Dan Conner - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 6:56pm
jay brown
User Info...		 See now in a round about sort of way that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Canada is built on a multitude of cultures and we have all come together to build a home together. Why should there be preferential treatment to one specific part of the community, that seems like racism to me. I love the diversity in canada it's awesome. But why on earth should all the rest of us be lumped into one category? We are all different colours and religions and walks of life. Some communities prosper and some dont that is a fact of life, generally speaking if people ask for help in this country they get it though. I dont understand how there can be something like 110% of our province under land claims. Was there really a large enough population then to take up that much space? I dont know about that cause we still seem to have lots of space left now. Then theres the question of who lived here before the native indians, shouldnt the land actually be theres? But thats right thats going back thousands of years .. and I'm sure they took it off someone who was there before them too. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 7:21pm
jay brown
User Info...		 It's funny reading that I sound harsh but I dont mean it like that I love diversity in life I just think everyone should be treated equally right across the board. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 7:43pm
greatestatguitar
User Info...		 I Think you are all wrong!!, I am not a native, but, think about it-- we came to canada and stole all the native peoples land, we killed the majority of the fish, weve polluted much of their country and we put alot of native peoples in alcoholism. the natives should definately get special treatment. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 9:05pm
V
User Info...		 Well, i think the writer of that article sounds just a little biased. I know nothing about Davis inlet or the attrocities played out there, but I do know that the aboriginals of this continent have been dealt a huge injustice by us "white folk".

In times long ago, all over the world, a clan of people would migrate and just simply wipe out another culture of people residing there. No treaties. Just kill em all. Now, because of laws, we can no longer find excuses for this. You'd have to be pretty ignorant, in my opinion, to not realize that a pretty sound culture has been rent to pieces by segregation, booze, and cigarrettes. I think the problem is still segregation. We whiteys are at the helm of Canada. As long as we keep natives in their little reservations and keep handing out their little handouts they are going to be on their own, in so far as theer coalescence into 'modern' society goes. That's different than assimilaion, which we've tried, and is horrible. Yea, actually, native culture is pretty cool. We all come from different cultures, and just becuase we all abide by the same laws does not mean that culture must be lost.

I realize i haven't proposed any solutions to this fucked up situation.. but i think we all have to be willing to come to the table on this one. Attitudes like, "well why don't they go out and get a fucking job," are not considerate of the fact that children of squalor whose parents are always drunk, and sleep in a small room with 10 other drunks, MIGHT have some developmental difficulties.

The numbers are shocking. I don't know any of them. But yea, I think this is something that should be brought to light instead of being kept on the back burner. "That pesky native situation" just isnt good enough anymore. - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 9:19pm
jay brown
User Info...		 See now ya talk about us white folk but if you looked around you anywhere except Victoria you'd notice that there are huge chunks of the population that are asian and east indian and jewish and portugeese and lots of others as well. Why arent all of them getting special treatment as well? I agree the natives were badly treated and alcoholism does run rampant, but hiding them away on reserves and handing them wads of cash and pretending like that solves anything is just idiotic. Ever driven through a reserve? I have, and while I have seen a few that are nice there are lots where it's just horrible living conditions. Do you think the money they were given helped at all? Maybe if people actually got off their sanctimonious asses and put out a helping hand instead maybe things might change. I'm willing to bet helping someone to stand up and be proud of themselves would work a lot better than throwing them on a reserve and watching them drink themselves to death. I have a bunch of native friends and we dont treat each other any differently because of the colour of our skin. They have their history and heritage and I have mine, but we all live side by side in the same country it just seems right to me that we'd all work together then to make a better future and not just sit here with our hands out. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:03am
White ass
User Info...		 Spoken like a true white ass bitch, who grew up in a white ass town, with nothing but white ass friends.Ever been denied a job cause your white? Forced to learn another language because you'd be beaten and abused if you did'nt? Maybe you morons should walk a mile in a native man's shoes before you go spouting generalities. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 5:24am
jackass
User Info...		 I grew up in Port Hardy, north island. I've seen a native or two. I've been on quite a few reserves. I know what's going on. I agree, handing over wads of cash is not the solution. Natives probably need special consideration, only because the majority of the native population is in some pretty dire straits. They need help recovering in some places, but just handing over money is not the answer.

Me and my friends call one of my native friends "wagon burner"...it's funny, we all laugh. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 6:34am
The Queen
User Info...		 I am in agreement with Jay. Throwing money at the First Nations people is NOT the solution. I have been on a couple of reserves, and the lifestyle is rough. We have to remember that most of the native people ages 45 plus probably spent their growing up at a residential school. They not only lost their connection with their family, but with their culture, language and tradition. The treatment they received there was horrific, causing serious emotional damage. Many have no concept of the role of a parent, because they did not have parents of their own to set an example. They struggle with acoholism, as many people do who have suffered abuse during childhood. Alcoholism creates another serious problem...Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Drinking during pregnancy causes severe, irreversible brain damage to the infant. The numbers of First Nations who suffer from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome are staggering. The First Nations people were treated terribly, there is no denying that. But they need social programs set up to enable them to regain what they have lost. Educate them, don't throw money at them in hopes that they will just go away and deal with their "OWN" problems. Yes, Canada is a diverse, mulitcultural nation and I consider it everyone's issue. Often cultural diversity creates segregation and intolerance. We have to remember the similarities...we are all human. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 6:56am
Mica
User Info...		 Hey Jay. You're right. It�s not our fault that some Europeans took a boat trip. It�s not our fault that some Europeans on a boat trip hunted and extinguished entire bands of Natives like they were rodents. It�s not our fault that these Europeans pushed their religion and language on a body of people who already had established spiritual beliefs. It�s not our fault that these travelers tore children from their homes and forced them to "learn" in residential schools; yeah, the Priests taught them well. It�s not our fault that these Europeans introduced alcohol, consumerism and a class system. It�s not our fault that their land was taken out from under them. So, I guess we should just shun our responsibility to at least try and atone for our ancestor's wrong-doings, right?

It�s easiest to say, "Screw it. We're all the same" but that's not the case. Our ancestors, in their infinite wisdom, did their best to strip a people of their cultural identity for nothing more than capital gain. To say that a sufficient amount of time has passed that these wrong-doings should be forgotten is naive - that's just dumping more coal on the fire. Tens of millions of people have been born here and happily call themselves Canadian (myself included). It�s a wonderful thing that we have a culturally diverse national population that is proud to call this home. However, there was an established population that called this land home long before the current nation was born forcibly and dishonorably on their backs. Someone has to take full responsibility; injustices don't just go away.

I think a %100 viable solution to the problem is probably impossible. There are too many people on both sides of the fence with different (and hidden) agendas. Unfortunately, money is the motivating factor for many. However, there are a significant number of Native people who want nothing more than the resources necessary to re-establish their culture. I think a good starting point would be to encourage/establish an unbiased curriculum in all schools centered on the history of Native culture and language in what was once their country. I also think it would be beneficial to phase out Reserves, even if it means continuing with a public housing subsidy in the public sector.

Do they have land entitlement? If their ancestors inhabited it and were forced to give it up then yes, undeniably. Can they then rape it for profit? Sure - just like we do. However, it is important to keep in mind that they can also protect it. Look at the Haida in the Charlottes. They're the only thing stopping the oil rigs from drilling near and endangering one of our most historically and environmentally rich regions. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 7:47am
V
User Info...		 ah, i think i might have fucked up on my last post. just for the record, i mean't that reservations and handouts are doing no good. i think as soon as you single yourself out, you make yourself a victim. together we are what we can't be alone.. and all that jazz.

and yea, Jay, good point. I talked about whites like they were undeniably, collectively "The Man", but there are plenty of other ethnicities pulling the strings as well. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 9:15am
jay brown
User Info...		 Hey Jay. You're right. It�s not our fault that some Europeans took a boat trip. It�s not our fault that some Europeans on a boat trip hunted and extinguished entire bands of Natives like they were rodents. It�s not our fault that these Europeans pushed their religion and language on a body of people who already had established spiritual beliefs. It�s not our fault that these travelers tore children from their homes and forced them to "learn" in residential schools; yeah, the Priests taught them well. It�s not our fault that these Europeans introduced alcohol, consumerism and a class system. It�s not our fault that their land was taken out from under them. So, I guess we should just shun our responsibility to at least try and atone for our ancestor's wrong-doings, right?


That is such a crock didnt you read anything I said?? Did I say any of that, I dont think so. I did say it wasnt my fault I ended up here so why on earth should I be made to feel guilty every day for where I was born. On the other hand I also said that if people really gave a shit they would try to help instead of just handing over their cash. Or in your case shooting your mouth off while doing nothing about the problem. I guess every part of the planet should be under a land claim of some kind or another cause I'm willing to bet that at sometime in the past somebody came along and settled in and treated the people that were there before like shit. Thats what people used to do when something was different and they didnt understand it, hell look around thats what most of them still do. Why should I atone for someone elses wrong doings? For how long exactly are people supposed to feel bad for something that they didnt even do? How on earth are things ever supposed to get better if people wont even acknowledge the problem without having somebody scream racism. Whats so wrong with saying the system doesnt work and it needs to be changed? Everyone agrees that most of the other parts of the system dont work so what would make this one any different?

As for the comments about being a white ass bitch growing up in a white ass town. Well I spent a few years living about a hundred miles outside of Williams lake up in the chilcotin, definitely not a white area let me tell ya. Then we moved to Whalley where every single friend I had was east indian because thats who lived there. Hell I think in a school of five hundred there were about fifty white kids. So maybe you should try educating yourself about the people your speaking with before you make generalities. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 9:35am
Troutbreath
User Info...		 The Queen states:
"Alcoholism creates another serious problem...Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Drinking during pregnancy causes severe, irreversible brain damage to the infant. The numbers of First Nations who suffer from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome are staggering."

I work in the school system helping children with disabilities. One of my most challenging clients is a boy with severe fetal alchohol syndrome. It is a very difficult condition with no chance of any improvement, ever. The developing brain has literally been pickled in alchohol. Working with this boy is not unlike spending time with someone who is permenently drunk. He is impulsive, attention seeking and incapable of any rational thought. He is not native or white, Fetal Alchohol Syndrome is found in all cultures. He did not have the choice about being this way. Next time you encounter some "drunk" on the streets of Victoria think about this kid. That person may not really be that way by choice. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:44am
jay brown
User Info...		 Now thats exactly what I was talking about, somebody helping. This is such a brutal subject to talk about because peoples tempers flare so quickly when stuff like this is brought up. I dont have a clue what the answers are but it seems to me that whatever is being done right now isnt working very well. Granted it is about a million times better than it was fifty years ago, but there are still so many problems and there doesnt seem to be a whole lot of answers. It's very difficult when everyone gets so p.c. about a subject that you cant even bring it up without people getting angry and telling you your wrong without any thought to the fact that they just might not be right either. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 2:21pm
The Queen
User Info...		 Troutbreath- I have done a tonne of research on F.A.S.D. and I am also involved with the F.A.S.D. Community Circle which raises awareness, and educates women of all racial and economic backgrounds. You are definitely correct when you say that it affects everyone, not just First Nations or women of high risk. The children with F.A.S.D. do not understand the concept of cause and effect. They are so impulsive that they will break into a house on the spur of the moment and equally impulsive that they will see a video game in that house...sit down and start playing and get caught. They are continuously involved in the Criminal Justice system which doesn't work for them, because of their inability to understand cause and effect. They don't "learn" from their mistakes. Not to mention that they are seriously taken advantage of once incarcerated, they are so naiive...approximately half their actual age in mental capacity. They do not understand abstract statements and often in trouble for taking things literally. For example, a cop tells the kid to put his hands on the car....the kid takes them off...the cop roughs up the kid...the kid says, but you didn't tell me to keep them there. Often they are misdiagnosed as ADHD and medicated for the wrong condition. Many, First Nations people suffer from F.A.S.D. and are not diagnosed, ending up in jail. Something like 40% of our prison population is First Nations. Stats say that 60% of inmates suffer from some form of F.A.S.D. (Anyone interested in more info re: FASD, feel free to email me.) - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 3:47pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 Listen to yourselves : Your are whining about a missed salmon lunch??!!!

Do you guys even realize that the land we are on RIGHT NOW has never been ceded to us by the natives? We are legally (under our own law) illegally settled here. Thiefs, if you will.

You might argue "Well, that was three hundred years ago." Well, in fact, we have a LEGAL responsibility to the natives. It is sure easy to say, essentially, "the deal is off" when it is in your own interest to call it off. Like, if you lent me $50 and I said "The deal is off-- that was 2 days ago."

Given the solution isn't to throw money at the problem, but if there is a contract we must stick to it. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 3:57pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 whatever happened to conquering new lands and survival of the fittest? they are lucky to get one penny from the canadian government. if millions of dollars won't help maybe a salmon lunch will.
where does all the money they get go? anyone have concrete evidence as to it's whereabouts and how much has been given to date?
are the native people squandering it away? or putting it to good use to improve their way of life?
i'll fucking go into the salmon lunch early and lick every fish because that salmon belongs to me as much as some native guy.
that is the law of nature. take what you take and get what you get. if you aren't happy with where you're at, do something about it.
i have millions of dollars but it sure as fuck wasn't a hand out. i earned it the old fashioned way. dealing drugs and comitting corporate crimes. and believe me i put it to very good use!
before the sappy whiners of the board start bitching about my outlook, you should ask yourself what you've done to help the natives lately.


that's what i thought. shut the fuck up in advance. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 4:27pm
Whitford St. Holmes
User Info...		 Unlike every other province, BC refused from day one to make treaties with the natives. If memory serves, Douglas made ONE to secure the harbour, and 'Treaty 8' in the north-east of the province was honoured because it was actually signed in Alberta and affected a few tribes that lived in the border region of the two provinces. As recently as 1910 the Tahltan nation (they live in the north west corner of BC) sent a declaration to the government of BC requesting some sort of treaty as the small influx of whites began. Hmmm, still no answer, they must be out.
I lived and worked on a reserve for three years. The problems are much greater than 'they should be treated like everyone else'. I hear what people are saying; ultimately we should all be equal under the eyes of the law, with no special status for any group. But there's a lot to redress in this province, and it's far too complex for a solution in the next few years. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 4:40pm
jay brown
User Info...		 See... everyone gets angry, everyone knows theres a problem, yet nobody has an answer. As for any of the statements about stolen land, well I didnt steal anything I was born here. My family has been here for 248 years to be exact. I dont feel guilty about it, everybodies ancestors somewhere down the line did something wrong somewhere. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 7:13pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 El Fuckface-o:
I can never tell the level of intended irony-- but here is a reply based on a not-ironic interpretation:


fuckface: "whatever happened to conquering new lands and survival of the fittest?"

-- eugenics kind of fell out of favour after hitler killed millions of jews and gypsies... the "survival of the fittest" as a biological concept has no place in explaining human survival, as it is largely due to culture. certainly, the concept has no place explaining differences between cultures. also, one suspects that you are not exactly the "fittest" yourself.


fuckface: "they are lucky to get one penny from the canadian government. if millions of dollars won't help maybe a salmon lunch will. where does all the money they get go? anyone have concrete evidence as to it's whereabouts and how much has been given to date? are the native people squandering it away? or putting it to good use to improve their way of life?"

-- the payments are not a charitable endeavor, but merely a fulfillment of obligations. charity rightly takes other, more useful forms.


fuckface: "that is the law of nature. take what you take and get what you get. if you aren't happy with where you're at, do something about it."

-- you don't think that you enjoy some kind of privilege? sure, everyone should strive for self-improvement, but (to use a pretty hurting analogy) some people must climb out of the basement while others start in the penthouse. it is fucking easy for someone like you to say "get what you get" when you're getting the most.


"you should ask yourself what you've done to help the natives lately."

-- i argued with you, you ignorant, racist, privileged cunt. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 7:24pm
KnifeGhost
User Info...		 Word to Mi*Coll*....... - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 7:55pm
jay brown
User Info...		 o.k. that was actually pretty good. - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 8:33pm
Mica
User Info...		 I think that the answer begins with education. Having grown up in a small Van Isle town with the usual division between our cultures, my perspective on Native issues was skewed. It's unfortunate that there was/is no curriculum available to students that is centered on Native culture/Language(s) in this Province. Ask any High School kid the significance of Delgamuukw v. British Columbia and you'd probably get a blank stare from most. In University I took a lot of Cultural Anthropology and a few Native cultural electives. The courses and Professors really opened my eyes. Cash isn't thrown at the Natives because its owed to them. It boils down to nothing more than a quieting measure used to try and keep the focus off of the real prize, which of course is land and it's resources. It also serves to solidify the division between "them" and "us".

I'm sorry I jumped on you Jay; I've read enough of your posts to know that you're not a el-fuckface-o. But the fact that you or I were born here certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse to circumvent our moral, historical and legal obligations to a culture that our ancestors wrongly and deceptively up-rooted. You said that we should give them a hand and "help them up", so to speak. The only way to do that is to ackowledge their ownership, give them back what's their's and help them make it viable. Look at Nunavut. The degree of skepticism greeting that initiative was staggering. Yet, the people of the Nunavut Nation have shown that they do indeed have the capacity to build and re-build when given the ability, support and neccesary resources.

I'm definately no expert, but I'm not just beaking off while doing nothing about the problem. I've spent time volunteering in Native Community Centers, I've sought education and I've worked on site excavations. I don't know the end-all solution. There are many variables. I think the only way we'll arrive at a solution is if the majority accept responsibility and collectively work toward a solution. Will that happen? Will it take another five hundred years, or can our Governments and Corporations keep stalling that long? - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 7:06am
jay brown
User Info...		 I agree about Nunavut, personally I think it's pretty damn cool, I hope they thrive with it. I actualy was just watching a special on Nunavut on t.v. a couple of days ago. There is the issues though that it seems that an awful lot of the bands just want to see how much they can take. I understand that they want what is in their minds rightfully theirs. But at the same time there is the majority of the population that have lived here their whole lives and worked their asses off for everything they have and then along comes someone else and says hey this is all ours give it back. Someone who has spent twenty years working and paying taxes and a mortgage isnt going to be very happy about that. Especially when the natives get free education and medical and homes and a cheque every month and next to no taxes. Look at the fishermen as well, while their jobs have been pretty much taken away in a lot of cases the natives dont have to worry about it. I understand it is their ancestral rights but that doesnt make it any easier to swallow if it's your job that's gone. What about that whaling thing that just started again I dont care what anyone says that is just revolting and totally unecessary. Watching a bunch of guys throw a harpoon into a whale is something your supposed to see on the history channel not the 6:00 news. Hell I used to work for greenpeace and thats exactly the kind of shit we tried to stop. Sure I agree the native population was treated horribly, and not just here but all over the world everywhere people settled the indigenous peoples suffered for it. But are we supposed to hand over our whole lives and then bend over and take it some more? Essentially we are being asked to pay for the wrongdoings of someone else. Hey I know something has to be done, whether it be money or land claims or whatever. But when I see in the paper that 110% of b.c. is under land claim, which would bring the claims a few miles out into the water since there isnt enough land my head starts to spin. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:43am
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 "essentially we are being asked to pay for the wrongdoings of someone else."

i hear that argument all the time- "its not my fault for what happened 200 years ago..."

but you've got to consider that the treaties (giving fishing rights etc.) that were signed were intended to be effective forever. that was the deal. the natives have lived up to their end of the bargain and we've certainly benefitted from it, so we should live up to ours.

as for the argument that "i worked my ass off for what i've got..."

say you buy a stolen stereo (with money you "worked your ass off for") -- if the cops find out, they take it back. it is that simple. (whether or not you "work your ass off" or got handed it on a platter is another question, but certainly relevant) - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:51am
Wreaker of Havoc
User Info...		 Despite popular belief most of Canada is NOT under treaty and the rest of the land actually was never forcefully taken over or abandoned. When settlers started encroaching on certain tribal areas most tribes approached the govt to work out the situation. Most of these negotiations have just simply gone on and on. They are not new; they are ongoing. Think about it. What would you do? Someone starts building a cabin on your property you call the police. What if the police said just be patient and we'll deal with it and said there would be serious consequences if you did anything about it? What if this went on for years? The intruders freinds started building and still no one would do anything about it. So finally you make enough noise and they say you can either deal with it or take a different smaller peice of land all for yourself.Ok That sucks wa wa wa. The problem today however is alot of these claims actually never got resolved. Bands have been waiting patiently, doing whatever the govt tells them they need to do to work things out. The govt actually LENDS Natives money for their legal fees. In most claims if the govt actually let it get to the supreme court, under our own Canadian Law, they would be given the rights to alot of land. THAT means alot of money. So now you can start to see that the struggle isnt so much about culture as it is about control of resources. Meanwhile us little folk bicker amongst ourselves about what is fair and what isnt while we are all actually being fucked without even knowing it. You look at any policy that gives any preference to any minority group and look at the small benefits compared to the animosity caused amongst competing groups. It keeps us blind and has been working beautifully. I need another beer - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:57am
Mica
User Info...		 Funny you should mention the fishing thing. I grew up Commercial fishing and worked as a fishing guide in the summers while I went to school. When my wife and I were surprised by her first pregnancy I thought, "Shit, I'm not going to be able to support a family with two thirds of a BA and a fishing industry that (at that time) isn't doing too well." I looked into re-training and any funding available. The Gov't had a fund for fisherman and handed me 26k to go back to school and re-train. Althought the Natives do have more funding at their disposal there are opportunities available to us white folk as well. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:10pm
jay brown
User Info...		 as for the argument that "i worked my ass off for what i've got..."

say you buy a stolen stereo (with money you "worked your ass off for") -- if the cops find out, they take it back. it is that simple. (whether or not you "work your ass off" or got handed it on a platter is another question, but certainly relevant)

That really doesnt apply whatsoever. If the legal governing body of the country says it is in fact legal then how on earth is the average person supposed to ever think of the idea of buying a home as a crime? If it was a crime then every real estate agent in the country would be in jail now wouldnt they.. As for the rest of canada I dont know how much is under land claim, but I have in fact actually seen a map of b.c. sectioned off into which parts were under claim and it was in fact 110% of the province that wasnt me just exaggerating to make a point there. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:53pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 -- eugenics kind of fell out of favour after hitler killed millions of jews and gypsies... the "survival of the fittest" as a biological concept has no place in explaining human survival, as it is largely due to culture. certainly, the concept has no place explaining differences between cultures. also, one suspects that you are not exactly the "fittest" yourself.

i am not sitting here bitching and moaning about someone "stealing" land from me that i don't actually own. if i want some land i follow the capitalist way and buy it. that is the way things are now. society is about changing with the times.
and survival of the fittest isn't always about race issues. in this case it's about the strong steamrolling over the weak. laws of nature.

-- the payments are not a charitable endeavor, but merely a fulfillment of obligations. charity rightly takes other, more useful forms.

my tax dollars never agreed to take on any obligations. so where has all the money gone that they supposedly are to use to help themselves? how about a referendum on this once and for all?

-- you don't think that you enjoy some kind of privilege? sure, everyone should strive for self-improvement, but (to use a pretty hurting analogy) some people must climb out of the basement while others start in the penthouse. it is fucking easy for someone like you to say "get what you get" when you're getting the most.

i worked for my privilege, you fish-eyed monkey. i started in the basement. i clawed my way out and took it on myself to become financially set. you assume i come from money or something? you probably assume i'm a white boy too.

-- i argued with you, you ignorant, racist, privileged cunt.

sure, and that did them a whole lot of good. now the alcoholism, abuse and poverty have lifted because you made a few halfassed points on a messageboard. cop out.
why don't you go and give them your money and any other assets you own? to twist a lame analogy, donate your time to teach them how to fish instead of giving them a salmon lunch. tickle sally june's bean while her 10 kids are napping. until you do something like that, you really have nothing to say on the matter.
before you say i am all about keeping down the natives and fucking them over, let me enlighten you to the fact that i would like to see them become self sufficient on all they have received throughout the years. go to free university for fuck sakes!
and you and your yes man, knifeghost should get a room at the blindly bleeding-hearted hotel and take your ass kissing elsewhere. it's sickening.
if you need clarity, click on my user info. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 1:12pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 fuckface: "in this case it's about the strong steamrolling over the weak. laws of nature."

-- If the strong can justly steamroll the weak because of the "Laws of Nature" then I guess if, say, a European industrial power decided to eliminate a some minority groups, and in fact killed 6 million of that group, that would be fine with you? "Laws of Nature," after all. Your 19th century notions of culture reek of Nazism. May I ask your political affiliation?


fuckface: "my tax dollars never agreed to take on any obligations."

-- Well, the fact that you have ANY money owes a lot to the presence of the country�s natural resources, even the presence of the country itself. This is basic economics. And, your country DID take on obligations, so, as a citizen, so did you. If you don't like it, go back to Russia.


fuckface: �how about a referendum on this once and for all?�

-- Ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority"? how about "Nazism"? A referendum is a completely ridiculous suggestion. How about if we on the board have a referendum to decide if el fuckface-o should give us rim jobs. Actually no...


fuckface: "i worked for my privilege, you fish-eyed monkey. i started in the basement. i clawed my way out and took it on myself to become financially set. you assume i come from money or something? you probably assume i'm a white boy too."

-- Well, why don�t you reveal your identity, you cowardly bitch. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 3:03pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 -- If the strong can justly steamroll the weak because of the "Laws of Nature" then I guess if, say, a European industrial power decided to eliminate a some minority groups, and in fact killed 6 million of that group, that would be fine with you? "Laws of Nature," after all. Your 19th century notions of culture reek of Nazism. May I ask your political affiliation?

no political affiliation here. i live by my own code of ethics and beliefs. if i had to give it a name, i'd call it the bitch slap mi*coll*'s stupid ass party.
you're one of those ignorant morons who assume that people who don't comform to pc ways of thinking are nazis. i didn't say natives should be killed off. i didn't even bring up anything about nazis or hitler. you did. i guess that makes YOU a hitler loving nazi. hey everyone, this mi*coll* guy is a racist hitler loving nazi.

-- Well, the fact that you have ANY money owes a lot to the presence of the country�s natural resources, even the presence of the country itself. This is basic economics. And, your country DID take on obligations, so, as a citizen, so did you. If you don't like it, go back to Russia.

i don't like it which is why i stopped paying taxes and starting making my money through dealing drugs. no paper trail, no bloodsuckers get my money. and most of my money nowadays has to do with the natural resources of south america, captain forehead.
i'd go back to russia, but the coke and hookers are better here.

-- Ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority"? how about "Nazism"? A referendum is a completely ridiculous suggestion. How about if we on the board have a referendum to decide if el fuckface-o should give us rim jobs. Actually no...

i'd be happy to give you a rim job. first i have to find my spiked 2x4.
so a referendum is a bad idea because the majority of canada might decide that natives are cut off from their aid. i guess you aren't much of a believer in democracy? and for a bleeding heart pc hypocrite you sure throw around that nazi term a lot. maybe you want to be one deep down. or maybe you are one and don't want anyone to know.

-- Well, why don�t you reveal your identity, you cowardly bitch.

my identity is right in front of you, asschin. you really want to know who i am? i am the cheif os the nunavut. i got all my riches through embezzling the handouts. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 3:40pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 well, whats your name, bitch. your REAL name. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 3:55pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 didn't hitler call the jews bitches as they were lead into the gas chambers?
calling me bitch really gets me upset and makes me want to react so badly.
grade 5? oh, i see. you're a uvic hippy idiot. now i know to just let you rant your retarded ramblings and let you dig yourself a hole. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 3:56pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 HELLO-- i'm calling you out. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:00pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 maybe you would benefit from an education. you might learn what democracy is. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:01pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 you're calling me out over an internet messageboard argument. that is pretty cool, homosack.
which part of the student union building should i kick your ass at?
i have a boatload of education. that is not the point here. you have clearly lost, so you are trying to shift the focus of the disagreement. classic case of "you lose because you're stupid".
i have no idea what democracy is, yet you veto the idea of a referendum. who's the nazi here?
ok professor moldynuts. why don't you explain to the class why a referendum and allowing the people of a country to decide on social issues is not democratic. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:02pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 you're threatening to fight me over the internet, you redneck piece of shit. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:06pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 you called me out. i was only accepting. weak attempt at "turning the tables". the only tables you'll ever succeed at turning will be the ones you bus for me after you graduate on your mail order degree.
i might be a piece of shit, but a redneck i am not. never even been past the four mile pub out sooke ways. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:09pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 now listen, children. democracy has protections against the tyranny of the majority such as freedom of association, and freedom of religion. minorities are protected. In fascism, state policy is dictated to serve the "people," the majority.

you are a coward hiding behind anonymity. i will gladly meet you. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:10pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 well, my limo driver has pulled the car around. this little exchange has prompted me to go for a drive through a reservation and throw some $100 bills at the residents. i guess they deserve it, so why not?
as i toss the chump change out the window i'll be sure to yell to them that mi*coll* says it's ok and that they should be proud that they are taking a handout. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:14pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 so what website did you copy and paste that from? http://www.forweakasslosersonly.com?
good to know that your view of democracy is to only serve minorities. i would like to think that it is a nice way to serve everyone, but if you'd like to discriminate, don't let me stop you!
i sure am getting you upset, hey? this is great!
well, the natives await $100 bills. i guess it won't be anything new for them though. free money is the way it should be always! - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:19pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 i'm not talking about any handouts, just holding a bargain. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:22pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 you seem to be the expert on political science-- where the fuck did you earn your degree? the academy of learning? - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:23pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 yes, a bargain to receive handouts for the rest of time.
must be nice!
never took political sciences at harvard. was too busy getting fucked up with the ladies of the faculty.
you know, your responses are keeping the natives from getting today's handout. you are occupying my handout despensing time. the blame lies completely on you for this one and i will let them know! - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:24pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 what kind of handouts do you think these people get, mate? - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:25pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 land parcels. lump sums of money for each tribe depending on their circumstances. tax breaks up the yinyang. countless other freebies that should really not give them reason to complain.
i suppose if they were just given all "their" land back, the handouts would stop and they would be happy. maybe you think everyone who's not native should be banished from north america? what is it that you want them to receive? what would make you happy?
now i am off to spread the joy of free money to george, jim, sally, henry, nora, bob and all the rest of those lovely people.
i'll catch your response at a later time. don't think i am walking away from this for good. just for a while so i can spread good cheer to the "victims" of the evil european's thievery. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:27pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 i think that it is pretty reasonable that they get land and don't have to pay taxes. after all, i don't think we can really complain about the that deal we got. i think they could justly complain about the deal they got.

think of this as a contractual matter between two states:
both agreed to a certain deal. one side consistently crapped out on the deal. one side consistently did not live up to the bargain that was agreed to. now some ass-licking anonymous bitch who in all likelihood is himself a parasite on society says "lets call off the deal."

you enjoy all of the benefits of that deal, and you should fucking well have to endure your share of the cost. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 4:30pm
jay brown
User Info...		 Once again I have to say no to that comment. I never entered into a deal with anyone about the land myself and my family have lived on for generations. A contractual agreement I never once was asked to vote on or for that matter even asked if I agreed with. How about this, I'll say yes in a referendum if I get free education and medical and a house and a cheque every month as well cause hey I'm native I was born here. I mean didnt the original inhabitants of north america walk across a land bridge way the fuck back when anyways? I guess that makes them immigrants as well. Hey would you look at that finally some common ground none of us are natives to north america, damn I guess we better give the buffalo back their land and pay restitution. Uhoh we wiped most of them out and the ones that are left are all on special plots of land.. Weird that sounds familiar.... I hope they are happy with medical and indoor plumbing. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 7:02pm
KnifeGhost
User Info...		 !!!!

Oh no you di-in't!!!!! - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 7:04pm
The Queen
User Info...		 Good god look at yourselves! It is a VERY touchy subject, like Jay said...people can't even discuss it in a civil manner. This is Canada's problem right here...nobody can agree on the First Nations situation. You have both made some good points(Mi*coll* and el fuckface-o.) There's no doubt that you are both educated individuals, so how about acting like it and instead of calling each other names, you actually LISTEN to what the other person has to say. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 7:06pm
Wreaker of Havoc
User Info...		 What if D-O-G spelled cat? - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 8:34pm
KnifeGhost
User Info...		 Queen, I appreciate your attempt to make peace, and this thread needs it, but I assure you that Fuck Face is aptly named and has been talking nothing but priviledge colonial shit all thread..... - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 9:03pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 thank you, knife.

people who talk about referendums about the fate of minorities are clearly stupid.

lets have a referendum that jay brown buys us all beer! - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 9:05pm
jay brown
User Info...		 But a referendum on quebec seperating was acceptable? Just out of idle curiosity why wouldnt it be acceptable to see how the people that live here feel about things? This is supposed to be a democratic country doesnt that mean that the people should have their voices heard? Personally speaking to be totally honest I would probably say yes to paying the natives a bunch of money just cause I do think they got fucked over, but if they got paid out I'd have to say our debt was paid and maybe it was time they paid for everything just like everyone else. I mean really once we paid our bill it wouldnt be right to have us keep paying for the schooling and the medical and the cheques every month and the taxes etc.etc. Think about that for a second because I'm willing to bet that even if we paid everything they wanted we'd still have to keep paying that and that wouldnt be fair now would it... hypothetically speaking of course. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 9:40pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 absolutely. once we settled the land claims everything would be cool for me (talking about settlements). of course, the situation is much more complex, even though i've been arguing a very simple point.

jay brown, you seem quite reasonable. my problem is with people who say "the natives are getting a free ride, etc., lets cut those lazy freeloaders off." you see, the natives actually AREN'T getting a free ride. in fact, they have been shafted (or as the kids these days say, "hustled") out of their end of the deal. we're, squatting on this here land for all intents and purposes. yes, you and me, right now.

now, i'm not advocating giving the land back or anything, but i do think that people need to wake up and realize that they have got it pretty fucking good. the natives actually had LEGAL ownership of this land, and we said "we'll give you X in return for the land." but we fucked 'em and never paid.

so, if we all chip in a hundred bucks a year in taxes or whatever its a fucking drop in the bucket compared to the resources that we got in return. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:05pm
Wicket
User Info...		 i think its funny that ppl say that its not there fault that their ancestors commited genocide because that happened hundrends of years ago, well cultural genocide of first nations has happened in canada up to the present. at first europeans killed natives with guns,a lcohol and germ warfare, then segregation , then residential schools, then forced sterilization and now as a result of colonization most natives live in poverty, have a less chance of finishing school and have a very high rate of suicide and drug abuse. most of the cultural has been wiped out by colonization. im half native and my family history includes things like my gradfather getting raped by a priest in a residential school, this didnt happen hundreds of years ago. my uncle got stabbed in the hand with a pencil (which a piece is still in his hand) by a teacher in his elementry school because he spoke his native language, this also did not happen hundreds of years ago. the truth is that white ppl have a privledge over natives in this society because of colonization. i look at native privleges as rent and if u dont like it i suggest u go back to europe or where ever u came from.

there is also lots of racism towards natives in this country. think of canada's monarchy, having the queen on the money is like having hitlers great grandchild on our money, it is a very insulting thing to natives. - Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:24pm
jay brown
User Info...		 I'll tell you a funny little piece of family history my great great grandfather was one of the very first people in canada to say that the natives deserved to be treated like human beings. So he built them homes and schools and churches on his farm and hired them all and paid them the same wages that everyone else got. Later on when the farm was being sold off that part of the farm was sold to the r.c.m.p. to build a fort which later became Edmonton.

p.s... i look at native privleges as rent and if u dont like it i suggest u go back to europe or where ever u came from.

In response to that comment I come from Canada it's where I was born and raised so go fuck yourself. As far as the comments about teachers in school they all used to be fucked I used to get beat because I wrote with my left hand. As far as the priests go, yes I agree that is revolting and look around you it's still happening today, to kids of all colours. Thats the church for you and if you hadnt noticed there are members of that church from every nationality. I agree alcoholism and drug addiction are huge problems in the native population everyone knows that so if you care do something to help. As tacky as it sounds one person can in fact make a difference. Personally speaking I dont see any reason to have the queen on any of our money either, but calling her hitlers great grandchild well if I'm not mistaken she was in fact on the other side of that war. I do understand the point you were making there but I think it's just a wee bit silly. I'm willing to bet the native bands that fought each other before europeans arrived arent calling each other hitlers decendants now. Sure there is racism here, it's everywhere and it's disgusting. Telling all the white people to go back to europe.. man that's sure going to help. Calling the queen of england a nazi.. yup theres a good way to get everyone on your side. See I was being sarcastic there in case you missed it. I was illustrating a point that you are in fact the one being racist there. Now if you want racism to stop dont you think home would be the easiest place to start? - Thu, 29 Apr 2004 1:52am
Wicket
User Info...		 i didnt say that all europeans should go back, just the ones who dont think natives should have native rights.

and i was not saying that the queen was a nazi, im saying that the monarchy has commited genocide on many native tribes, and the ones it didint kill off it conquered. all the riches that the queen has is from killing other nations.

im sure your grandfather had good intentions but most chuches were made to brain wash the heathen natives and turn them more white. im not saying that every white person is resoponsible, what i am saying is that many native ppl today are fucked up as a result of being colonized and then the canadian government commiting cultural genocide on them. many native ppl rely on their native rights to hunt and fish to feed their family, they are to poor to buy food, and they dont have enough land to grow food. 2 of my tribes are protected by the douglas treaties, and the treaty say that the future ppl of the tribe will have the right to hunt and fish, and the land will be the whitemans forever. it says something like this, and it actually says whiteman. so if u take away native rights that means that this treaty/contract is broken (which it already has been). so does this mean that this island is no longer canada?

white ppl have prevleges over non white ppl in this society, so i can see why some ppl dont want other ppl to also have prevleges, since it might level things out. (im not saying this is any of u, i have no idea who u are) - Thu, 29 Apr 2004 8:29am
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 jay, i don't know why you keep flogging the fact that your great great grandfather was from canada. if anything that just illustrates that your heritage is the most colonial on the board. your great great grandfather probably recieved free land from the government for christsakes. that land in all likelihood was not actually their's to give away. - Thu, 29 Apr 2004 8:35am
jay brown
User Info...		 bwahahah ya I just read through my posts sure did mention him a lot huh. Must of been stuck in a loop there. Colonial huh, maybe on my dad's side. I do believe on my moms side that my great grandmother was sechelt band so nah definitely not on that side.. bwahahahah. - Thu, 29 Apr 2004 9:06am
Instrument of Karma
User Info...		 The problem is that everyone perpetuates the problem. Natives included. The more natives talk about opression, the more fuel for the fire. My grandfather was full blooded Cree, and my grandmother was Cree/Irish. My grandfather had to renounce his status to go to war against hitler and the nazi fucks (incidentally, the other side of my family is German and Norwegian, incase any teutonics want to call me racist). When I asked him why he would do such a thing, he replied that we are all people, and he had no need of a title to be a man. If only we all could be so logical.
Anyway, the biased treatment must stop. When the natives get more than anyone else, the Nazi-minded folk in this country get bent. When the natives get less than everyone else, they get bent. There is not an indian alive(can I say indian?) that was around when the land was devoid of the fucking whitey. NOT FUCKING ONE. We must evolve as a unified people and get over it.
That probably won't happen until we have a new face on the block to fear...just like in school. Sucks don't it. - Sat, 1 May 2004 7:24pm
KnifeGhost
User Info...		 Right now natives aren't getting more than anyone else.... - Sun, 2 May 2004 2:18pm
jay brown
User Info...		 When do natives get less than everyone else? Words like nazi-minded and whitey, they dont really help now do they? - Sun, 2 May 2004 2:24pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 of course the natives get less than everyone else, are you fucking drunk? they are poorer, have worse health and are less educated than average.

sounds like less to me. - Sun, 2 May 2004 2:32pm
jay brown
User Info...		 Nope sober thanx, hmmm worse health and no education huh.. It's a good thing then that whitey came along and gave them free health and education or that could of become a real problem. - Mon, 3 May 2004 5:49am
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 because if "whitey" hadn't come along they'd be way worse off, right? - Mon, 3 May 2004 6:38am
ROSS B AY
User Info...		 It wasn't me and it wasn't you and that's all that matters.... - Mon, 3 May 2004 9:40am
Fred the Dragon
User Info...		 I know this is long, but if you really care to know the facts surrounding this debate, you should read this. I wrote it for a class I took at UVic... Aboriginal Politics and Self-Government. Enjoy!

Before the arrival of Europeans, Aboriginal peoples across Canada were independent self-governing nations. The way in which groups of Aboriginal people organized themselves politically was not at all heterogeneous; different types of Aboriginal societies organized themselves politically in very different ways. Nevertheless, all Aboriginal peoples had specific structures of governance - ways in which they selected their leaders, a set of laws which governed the lives of the people, rules of protocol that governed their relations with other nations and ceremonies which formalized the institutions within their societies such as marriage and death.

When European settlers arrived, the sophistication of Aboriginal political institutions was understood by some and misunderstood by others. However, in the early history of European contact, the agents of the Crown quickly understood that their dealing with Aboriginal nations had to be on a political, nation-to-nation basis. As a result, First Nations have always had a special relationship with the Federal government.

This relationship goes back to before the time that Canada became a country in 1867. About a hundred years before the British North America Act created Canada, the British government decided to divide up part of North America and allow European settlers to have farmland. However, the British government did not want to disrupt the lives of Aboriginal peoples. The Royal Proclamation of 1763 was passed in part, to recognize that Aboriginal people had been living in their territories for a very, very long time. The Royal Proclamation signified that the British government intended to share the land with the Aboriginal people, on a nation-to-nation basis. This lead to the practice of "making treaty� now referred to as treaties.
The Aboriginal peoples who signed treaties considered them to be more than simply resigning their rights to certain tracts of land. The Aboriginal people understood the treaties to be solemn undertakings of the Crown, which acknowledged the self-governing powers of Aboriginal peoples - a guarantee that the Aboriginal peoples would be able to continue to live their lives in much the same way they had before the arrival of the Europeans. However, the federal government refused to understand the treaties in the same way. When the British North America Act of 1867 established the law-making powers of the federal government, Section 91(24) gave the federal government responsibility over "Indians and Lands reserved for Indians." Section 91(24) established the power of the federal government over Aboriginal people and undermined the importance of the treaties.

Today, many non-Aboriginal Canadians are puzzled by the term 'Aboriginal self-government'. Why should aboriginal people be able to govern themselves? However, to Aboriginal peoples, land claims and self-government are the principal means to preserve their cultures, their languages, and their economic well being. The source of the Aboriginal right to self-government flows from their inherent rights, which they believe they received from the Creator. The right to self-government also flows from the treaties. To Aboriginal people, the treaties are not ancient and forgotten promises, but current and contemporary documents which prove the self-sufficiency of their people and the responsibility of the federal government. Land claims and self-government are the means by which aboriginal people can continue to assert their distinct identity and still have access to the social, economic and political institutions of Canadian society.

Some people may object that these ambitions are racist. How can a liberal democratic society like Canada, where all people are considered equal, tolerate political institutions limited to persons of one race? To Aboriginal people, this objection makes little sense. Aboriginal people were here first. Aboriginal people did not immigrate to Canada as individuals or families who expected to be assimilated, but they were here, governing themselves; they were the only race inhabiting the continent. Aboriginal people have been forced to submit to the laws and institutions of the dominant white society, even though they never stopped asserting their claim to be treated as distinct peoples.

When discussing self-government, Aboriginal people do not seek to recreate a world that has vanished. They do, however, want to find a secure place in the world that has been forced upon them. Indian treaties, Indian reserves, Indian Acts - these are all institutions designed by Europeans and Euro-Canadians to manage Aboriginal people primarily for their own convenience. Now, Aboriginal people want to develop their own institutions. They wish to see their cultures grow and change in the directions they have chosen for themselves. They do not wish to be objects of romanticism, returning to life in tepees and igloos. Aboriginal people will be citizens of the 21st century.
Aboriginal self-government means Aboriginal people designing and controlling their own justice systems, schools, health clinics, employment services, businesses. It means taking responsibility for their survival as healthy, vibrant peoples. Aboriginal self-government comes from within the Aboriginal cultures themselves, and so the aspirations and needs will continue to evolve as Aboriginal people take more control over their own lives. However, if Aboriginal people are to become true partners in the Canadian federation, Aboriginal self-government must also be understood, recognized and valued by other Canadians.
In Section 35(1) of the Constitution Act, 1982, it clearly states that �the existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the Aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.� But that sentence is open to a plethora of interpretations. The Federal government sees it as an excuse for taking away Aboriginal title, whereas Aboriginal peoples view it as a recognition of their inherent right to the land. The definition of jurisdiction, and the sacrifices willing to be made for it, vary between the different Native bands in Canada. In the Nisga�a Final Agreement, the Nisga�a peoples gave up their aboriginal rights, in exchange for the rights offered in the treaty. In section 26, it lays out the guidelines for this. �If� the Nisga�a Nation has an aboriginal right�other than�the Nisga�a section 35 rights as set out in this agreement, the Nisga�a Nation releases that aboriginal right to Canada�� Many other Native communities around Canada would never have agreed to something so final and absolute, but in the eyes of the Nisga�a, they now had a formal land base, and ability to govern that land as they see fit (for the most part).

The movement that has taken place among First Nations for Aboriginal self-government in Canada has many distinct characteristics. The late 1960s was a turning point for the movement when the White Paper (1969) was released. In it, the Honourable Jean Chretien proposes �that the Indian Act be repealed and take such legislative steps as may be necessary to enable Indians to control Indian lands and to acquire title to them.� First Nations across Canada united in their disapproval of this document. In their minds, even though the Indian Act was far from perfect, it was the only thing that protected their inherent right. Therefore, unless there was a positive alternative to the Indian Act, they would not allow the Federal government to take away what little rights they had. The First Nation�s response to the White Paper said just that, and it started a movement of solidarity between all Natives in Canada.

Another important characteristic of the self-government movement is patience. First Nation�s understand that change cannot happen overnight, and they need to recognize that self-government has to be a long-term goal. If they begin to become impatient, they will ultimately end up with an agreement that no one is truly satisfied with. In the mid 1970s, the first modern treaties were concluded between the federal and Quebec governments and the Cree, Naskapi and Inuit of northern Quebec - treaties that contained a significant self-government component.

Since that time, momentum has been gathering slowly: self-government agreements have been signed with Yukon First Nations, several groups in British Columbia (Nisga'a and Sechelt) and with approximately 30 other First Nations scattered across Canada. In addition, Canada has created a new territory, Nunavut, in which the Inuit majority will control the territory�s public government.

A lot of major breakthroughs in favour of First Nations have come through long arduous court battles, not necessarily at the negotiation table. In the Sparrow judgement, the courts recognize that the Aboriginal right to fish must have precedence over commercial fishing, but still remain subordinate to conservation laws. The Delgamuukw judgement contains elements that will influence cases of this kind for years to come. The court has given a new definition to "aboriginal title", and has developed a number of general principles intended to guide future trials. Two of the most important of these principles are that native people collectively have aboriginal title to lands once occupied by their ancestors, and that "oral histories" and other non-documentary evidence introduced by native plaintiffs to show past occupancy must now be placed on an equal footing with other forms of evidence.

Education is essential for First Nations, if they ever hope to successfully run their own forms of government. First Nations will never win against the federal government if they do not have knowledgeable people up to bat against them. The social services must be put into place in order for First Nations to be given the same opportunities as non-Aboriginals. The stumbling block in all of this though, is money. Aboriginal communities do not have the resources to generate revenue like the Federal government does. A viable option that First Nations have begun to explore is making deals with industries themselves. A lot of resource companies are now wanting to make deals with Aboriginal communities in order to gain some sort of certainty. With all the treaty negotiations that are starting to take place, a mining company is not going to invest millions of dollars into a project only to find that 3 years in, a treaty has been signed between a First Nations community and the Federal government, and the First Nations government will not allow any more mining to take place. Therefore, they have begun to make financial deals with First Nations as well as with the Federal government. That money should then be invested in education, social and health services.

Courts should also play an important role in First Nations self-government strategies. As stated above, many important breakthroughs have occurred in the courts, and not at the negotiation tables. First Nations must present the courts with a specific right, and let the court rule on that. If they present the court with too broad a topic, then the chance of a negative outcome increases. If they begin to rack up the little victories, eventually, they will end up with a huge one.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading. - Mon, 3 May 2004 10:29am
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 well now all the natives hate mi*cunt*. i let them know that you are the one who said it was cool for them take take a hand out and continue to blame "whitey" and alcoholism for their scrap yard reserves, perpetual poverty, domestic abuse and poor education.
while i was coming out of the reserve, i ran into a young native woman who was dressed respectably, wasn't wasted, didn't have 6 kids, wasn't beaten, didn't drink or do drugs, is going to university and lives in a nice, clean house on an average street in view royal ( that's right, i went to the anus of all of victoria's reserves to hand out the money they had coming to them. esquimalt nation).
i asked her why she wasn't living on the reserve and taking the free money? she said she realized that it is up to her, as it is to everyone regardless of their circumstances or heritage to overcome their disadvantages and make use of the tools at their disposal to make their future something to look forward to.
i asked her if she likes that people who aren't native get into arguments supporting aboriginal issues and all the monetary payouts and breaks that are received. she wondered how someone who isn't native and has never been in that position and couldn't possibly even comprehend what it's like to have everyone treated equally (ie. no tax breaks, no free land, etc...) should have anything to say about the subject.
she agreed that she was a good example of why a lot of natives are full of bullshit when it comes to whining about being railroaded into a life of drinking, domestic abuse and poverty. if she can do it, why can't anyone else? she figures that people who think this why also think that native people are stupid and don't have the know how or common sense to lead a normal life.
then i found out that there are quite a few native people that don't feel the need to take all these government handouts. why is that? because they feel like they are strong enough and proud enough not to have to suck at the government's teet.
speaking of teet, mi*craw* should stop sucking on the one attached to mindless political correctness. try going out and actually talking to native people who are doing something with their lives other than waiting for a "broken deal" to be resolved and for that new dodge caravan with the eagle on the side window to be delivered. time to move on, don'tcha think? - Mon, 3 May 2004 11:52am
D�d[]Sanger
User Info...		 "No matter what the circumstances, I fully disagree with double standards.
I'll leave it at that."

I'm with Mr.Hell on that one. - Mon, 3 May 2004 12:10pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 the first "take" in my post should be "to". couldn't edit because darthfagger decided to post some nutswinging approval of mr. swellnut's non-insightful drool drivel.
i'm sure there are other spelling and/or grammatical errors that cock*neck* will point out to try and negate my points and distract from the fact that he is wrong and i am right. - Mon, 3 May 2004 12:12pm
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 El-Fuckface:

preemptively defensive about your poor grammar? edgy, maybe? nervous that your argument is fundamentally flawed?

well you should be. you say "treat everyone equally" and i couldn't agree more, but i don't know how you propose to accomplish that without pulling the rug from the native communities and exacerbating the problem. ultimately in your scenario they would not be "equal," but far, far worse off. also, to argue that "she could do it, why can't they all" is to miss the obvious social context of the issue: canadian citizens, whether native or white, overwhelmingly maintain the same social status throughout their lives. some people get richer, some get poorer, but most stay the same.

to your suggestion that natives themselves do not like the social programs afforded to them, i'll simply point out that i've been arguing about the obligations that canada committed itself to, not the social programs in place. throughout this thread people have repeatedly failed to differentiate the two. plus, you just made that anecdote up, i can tell. - Mon, 3 May 2004 1:04pm
el fuckface-o
User Info...		 i know my points are not flawed. i do know that you have taken to distractive measures in previous posts due to your lack of sensible retorts and extremely shriveled vas deferens.
in terms of treating everyone equally, how about giving everyone the same luxuries regardless of financial situation? that would be treating EVERYONE equally. of course i imagine that wouldn't work for you because then more privileged people such as myself would be that much further ahead of flounders like you.

"canadian citizens, whether native or white, overwhelmingly maintain the same social status throughout their lives. some people get richer, some get poorer, but most stay the same."

yes, well that's a shame. i suppose the mentally disabled should receive land parcels as well as restitution for being born retarded? maybe the physically disabled can blame their affliction on lucky beer that is sold by the government and receive a big chunk of government funds. white junkie boy can say he was put out of his home by native land claims and come crash on your couch. can't hold everyone's hand all the time. unless they are retarded or schizo, there is no excuse for not bettering their lives. it can be done without the approval of the "advantaged".
canada committed itself to fulfilling obligation and part of that is social programs. these people still want more and more. i hope wherever you buy your first piece of property, it's handed over to a whining band and you don't get back a cent.
these fucking people weren't even alive when this conquering (or was it outsmarting?) took place. if no one told them about it, they would be happy playing in the fire hydrant behind the rusty fridge.
the only thing i made up about that adecdote is where i met the person and the gender of the person. there have been more meetings like that with different people of that background. if these people can come out of full on alcoholic and abusive homes and make their lives worth living, then those who can't should be shanked to death for being hopeless. either that or just stop bitching.
i did drive through the reserve and chuck $100's at them. of course, they were the counterfeits i've been saving for a rainy day. don't worry! el fuckface-o's wealth has not been depleted by the greedy indians.
well, this subject has been flogged like a squaw, so i am going to move on and let mi*cry* continue living in his fantasy world without the annoying disruption of reality pestering him.
be sure to give knifeghost a kiss before you two fall asleep tonight all spooned up. - Mon, 3 May 2004 1:30pm
Troutbreath
User Info...		 Many people have pointed to land given to First Nations. There is one major technicality about this land that no one has mentioned yet. A bank cannot issue a mortgage on "Reserve" titles. I own a house in the city and have a small mortgage on the title. If I need to I can use the equity in the land as collateral, then use the money to make more money. That's the way most wealth in this country is created. First nations people living on "reserve" land cannot access the equity. - Tue, 4 May 2004 5:13am
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 Fuckface, i agree that this topic is wearing thin. well, i guess you just can't change the minds of people who still take cues from Franz Joseph Gall. Ah well, it has been a pleasure. - Tue, 4 May 2004 10:08am
A*Funk
User Info...		 Fred the Dragon,
you might like to read the work of Jim Tully, a prof in Poli Sci at UVic, on furthering constitutional dialogues in a post-Quebec crisis Canada... some interesting reading. As for everyone else: we commit genocide, then bitch about it when the survivors won't shut up. Sounds fair to me.

I calls 'em like I sees 'em. - Thu, 6 May 2004 8:53am
Mi*coll*
User Info...		 i just read fred the dragon's piece-- that's good stuff. - Fri, 7 May 2004 2:51pm
Broccoli
User Info...		 The British house of commons (the largest Drug cartel the world has ever known) sanctioned Genocide and ethnocide: All but eradicating their traditional way of life, so I can see how Wicket might find the Queens ugly mug on change offensive. It is now impossible to re-establish how natives used to live (after all, we eradicated most of what they hunted, and are poisoning all the fish. Still, perhaps They should be given squatting rights), but some of their culture remains, predominantly as art forms.

Anyone remember a native wooden fetus they had outside of legends comic-book store for ever? That thing was cool.

I respect real efforts to preserve their culture, however the whaling thing Jay mentioned doesn't seem quite right. I personally hate whales, and killing a couple Orca a year isn't going to affect there pod in any significant manner. I think Natives should have the right to Hunt a few whales a year (provided they are eating the damn things), HOWEVER, if it is going to be claimed that they are doing this for cultural reasons, I sincerely believe that they should be using traditional methods: i.e. NOT using a tugboat and a harpoon gun.

Also: if you are upset that you are not getting the same tax breaks, you can weasel SOME. Status cards are deadly easy to forge, and can get you sweet deals at gas stations on native land.

I know LOTS of Native people who do not live on the reserves, independent and still very active in their cultural preservation (with mask dancing thingers and such).

I dunno how equity works, but that sure sounds like a bum deal. though, you had to buy your house to begin with, no?

I also think it is pretty sad that more natives do not take advantage of their free education deal. Not only are all of their books and school supplies paid for, but they receive a living allowance (perfect for getting off crumby reserves).

and lastly: a fun fact about Fetal alcohol syndrome...

Alcohol belongs to a class of chemicals called teratogens, which also includes Thalidomide, and anything else that causes fetal defects. Literally, Teratogen means to make Monsters. That�s what I want to be when I grow up: Monster maker. - Sat, 8 May 2004 6:41am
Fred the Dragon
User Info...		 A*funk - I'm very familiar with Tully and his work. Brillaint guy... dodgy prof (imho)

Mi*coll* - thanks. - Sat, 8 May 2004 2:53pm
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